Talk:duty
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Backinstadiums in topic do (double) duty
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Noun: "Describing a workload as to its idle, working and de-energized periods." Sense line needs improvement; also not totally sure what this refers to. I'm 95% certain I asked about this sense before, somewhere, but couldn't find it with a quick search around Tea Room etc. So let's RFV it. Equinox ◑ 02:10, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Your earliest inquiry was four months ago in the Tea room. The answers may not have satisfied you, as there was another attempt two months later. I observe a two-months cyclical process at work. --Lambiam 11:02, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- There are several things wrong with the current definitions of duty. For example sense #2: “A period of time spent at work or doing a particular task”, with as usex: I’m on duty from 6 pm to 6 am. We may as well add a sense to shower of “Time spent bathing using a device that sprinkles water from above”, with the usex He could spend hours under the shower. The sense given should not apply to the noun duty but to the prepositional phrase on duty. (Other entries have similar problems; for example, the non-literal meanings for hot water should really be assigned to the prepositional phrase in hot water.) Even then, consider the sentence “there will always be someone on duty”. That does not mean, “there will always be someone during a period of time spent at work or doing a particular task”. The actual sense of duty here is not the period, but the activity of performing the work or task – when applied to humans, an obligatory activity, something the duty-bound individual has been charged with. For engines, by analogy, duty means performing the function it is supposed to perform, or more generally, being active. In this sense it is usually used as an attributive noun, with the adjective idle serving as the usual antonym. The term can be seen at work in the concept of ”duty cycle”, and also in ”duty factor”. Compare also ”heavy-duty battery” – essentially the same sense of duty. It is closely related to sense #7, for which I wonder if it merits inclusion over more common technical use. Finally, there is the colloquial use in a sentence like “by the looks of it, these boots have seen some heavy duty”. Or should that go under heavy duty? --Lambiam 11:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- I beg to differ on assigning NP meanings to the corresponding PP. Taking hot water as an example, it occurs with prepositions like into, out of, as well as in. It can also appear in more creative uses that build on the metaphor. Having multiple PP entries seems silly and still would miss the general metaphorical use of the NP. DCDuring (talk) 18:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
- Of course I wouldn’t want to assign an NP meaning to the phrase. I think it should be treated the same way as the prepositional phrase in a bind. For any multi-word idiom you are likely to find creative variations, such as replacing in by out of. There are plenty of hits for in even hotter water. That does not mean we must prize the idiom in hot water apart, with hot sense #18 (Uncomfortable, difficult to deal with; awkward, dangerous, unpleasant) and water sense #6 (A state of affairs; conditions; usually with an adjective indicating an adverse condition). --Lambiam 10:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- I don't view it a matter of creativity that one can find abundantly attestable uses of figurative bind with prepositions like into and out of. I suppose one could make entries for each attestable preposition used with figurative bind and insert usage examples that show (???creative???) usages like "out of a tight bind". DCDuring (talk) 13:57, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- It appears that bind in this sense was first recorded in 1851 in the phrase in a bind. Even today, the vast majority of uses takes the simple form in a bind, with the preposition in and with no further qualifications of bind. If we can explain the meaning of in a bind from the meaning of bind, it is only because we have extracted the meaning of the noun from the earlier idiom in a bind. We have defined bind as “a troublesome situation; a problem; a predicament or quandary”. But can one say, “I advise you to avoid binds”, or ”Here is a bind that I’d like you to solve”? It is not simply a synonym of these definitions. The use of the noun remains bound to the figurative context provided by the prepositional phrase. --Lambiam 23:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- The figurative use of bind is somewhat restricted as you say. That, together with the fact that the multiple prepositions in, into, out of work in both the literal and figurative uses, suggests to me that the metaphor has not completely fossilized. But such restrictions are not too unusual: some words work better in some grammatical situations than some of their synonyms.
- To avoid overlong, inconclusive discussions (usually at RfD) we often follow the lemming heuristic/principle. If other real dictionaries have it, we should too. So “in a bind”, in OneLook Dictionary Search. makes the case for in a bind, as “on duty”, in OneLook Dictionary Search. makes its case. DCDuring (talk) 23:18, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- It appears that bind in this sense was first recorded in 1851 in the phrase in a bind. Even today, the vast majority of uses takes the simple form in a bind, with the preposition in and with no further qualifications of bind. If we can explain the meaning of in a bind from the meaning of bind, it is only because we have extracted the meaning of the noun from the earlier idiom in a bind. We have defined bind as “a troublesome situation; a problem; a predicament or quandary”. But can one say, “I advise you to avoid binds”, or ”Here is a bind that I’d like you to solve”? It is not simply a synonym of these definitions. The use of the noun remains bound to the figurative context provided by the prepositional phrase. --Lambiam 23:03, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- I don't view it a matter of creativity that one can find abundantly attestable uses of figurative bind with prepositions like into and out of. I suppose one could make entries for each attestable preposition used with figurative bind and insert usage examples that show (???creative???) usages like "out of a tight bind". DCDuring (talk) 13:57, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- Of course I wouldn’t want to assign an NP meaning to the phrase. I think it should be treated the same way as the prepositional phrase in a bind. For any multi-word idiom you are likely to find creative variations, such as replacing in by out of. There are plenty of hits for in even hotter water. That does not mean we must prize the idiom in hot water apart, with hot sense #18 (Uncomfortable, difficult to deal with; awkward, dangerous, unpleasant) and water sense #6 (A state of affairs; conditions; usually with an adjective indicating an adverse condition). --Lambiam 10:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
- I beg to differ on assigning NP meanings to the corresponding PP. Taking hot water as an example, it occurs with prepositions like into, out of, as well as in. It can also appear in more creative uses that build on the metaphor. Having multiple PP entries seems silly and still would miss the general metaphorical use of the NP. DCDuring (talk) 18:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
RFV-failed Kiwima (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
quality[edit]
suitability for a particular grade of use (usually used in combination) heavy-duty shoes Microsoft® Encarta® 2009
What other combinations are possible? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:19, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know any others but just found "light-duty" in GBooks: e.g. "Bonded brake linings are more common on light-duty vehicles because they are less expensive to build." Equinox ◑ 10:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
do (double) duty[edit]
CambridgeGEL reads
the comma does duty for the inadmissible full stop, and hence belongs internally. Do (double) duty 1. To do two things simultaneously. 2. To be able to serve two functions.do (double) duty https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/do+duty