Talk:gẃraidd

I've never seen this word before, and I can't find any kind of attestations for this using any of my three Welsh bilingual dictionaries, google, or any welsh dictionaries online. So unless someone can find citations, I'm flagging it for now. YngNghymru 20:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Its creator is a respected editor (though not Welsh). I've posted a comment on his talkpage advising him about this request for speedy deletion, just in case he has a good defence for the page.—msh210℠ 21:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to remember back over four years ago. I didn't get this from the translation table at manly and I can't find my Welsh dictionary right now. I read a lot of language stuff on blogs so I could've spotted it somewhere like that. But in this case I think I was actively looking for words with various accented characters and probably found this one in a list somewhere. Anyway doing a Google search for gẃraidd + manly turned up not a few hits including this one: https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9808&L=WELSH-L&P=2715

The acute accent is used to indicate unexpected stress (i.e. not on the
penultimate):

        casa'u `to hate', case't `cassette', ricri'wt `a recruit'
        paraso'l `a parasol', rebu'wc `a rebuke',
        caridy'ms `riff-raff', gw'raidd `manly' (this last is on the
        penult, but is to distinguish it from the word gwraidd `root',
        which is monosyllabic)

The apostrophe is used by the writer or perhaps the whole mailing list to denote an acute accent on the previous vowel. — hippietrail 02:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's fair enough. I'm not a native speaker. But I couldn't find it anywhere, on the internet's welsh dictionaries or anything. I'll ask some other speakers about it. YngNghymru 17:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It's in the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru p. 1698, in this exact spelling with the acute accent on the w. Angr 21:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Then it's probably a real word. I'll have to get my hands on that dictionary. YngNghymru 14:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, all four volumes will set you back £350, but the headwords and simple English translations are available as free PDFs from [1]. For this entry see page 599 of [2]. Angr 18:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Citations:gẃraidd

Given the dates, does this qualify as Modern Welsh? I don't know when the Modern Welsh era begins. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

See w:History of the Welsh language, which variously states that Modern Welsh begins in the late-13ᵗʰ or the early-15ᵗʰ century; either one covers this word at your time of writing. By now, we have quotations running into the 18ᵗʰ century, which puts it clearly in Late Modern Welsh.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 12:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

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gẃraidd

Tagged but not listed.
This word does indeed exist in Welsh with the translation root. (However, it is correctly spelt without the acute accent. In Welsh, the stress is normally on the penult; if it is on any other syllable, an acute accent denotes the irregular stress — as, for example, in carafán (“caravan”) and casáu (“to hate”).)
I’ve not come across the adjectival sense of manly before; however, the word’s form makes perfect sense (as the combination of: gŵr (“man”, “husband”) + -aidd (“-like”, “-ly”, “-ish”)). Perhaps the acute accent is used to differentiate the adjective from its nominal homograph; however, I have only ever seen the circumflex and grave accent used for this purpose, and never the diæresis or acute accent.
† ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 21:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

One more thing to note: If this adjective does indeed exist (sans acute accent), then our entry for gwraidd will need to be split by pronunciation, with the monosyllable gwraidd (“root”) pronounced as /ɡwraið/ and the disyllable gwraidd (“manly”) pronounced as /ˈɡu.raið/. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I've responded on Talk:gẃraidd with the results of an enlightening Google search. &mdashhippietrail 02:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

So it is used to avoid homography…
As enlightening as that excerpt is, it is still but a mention, and we need use. The only usage I could find anywhere on the internet was a thirteenth-century pœem (spelling modernised). Is this adjective obsolete? † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It's in the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru p. 1698, in this exact spelling with the acute accent on the w. The dictionary itself gives several quotes showing use of the term, but none from later than the 18th century, and none using this exact spelling. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's obsolete, as the dictionary usually only provides quotes for words up to about the 18th or 19th century. Angr 21:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

One year, seven months, one week, and several hours later, we have eighteen citations of this Welsh word scattered across six centuries, but as Angr noted, none of them use it spelt exactly as gẃraidd. The closest attested spelling is gŵraidd (with citations therefor from 1632, 1722, and 1723). Despite the lack of direct attestation for the spelling with the acute accent, I think we should keep the entry and as this spelling. Welsh orthography was standardised in 1928 (with the publication of Orgraff yr Iaith Gymraeg), so for the reasons that we lemmatise orthographically regular spellings for Ancient Greek and Latin words (even if they're not attested precisely in that form), so should we do the same for Welsh words.
The acute accent normally indicates stress (and is almost never used where the stress falls on the penult), wherefore, conversely, I don't believe we should make entries for this adjective's non-disyllabic derived terms and equative, comparative, and superlative forms (without direct attestation thereof, that is), since in them, the acute accent is written on the antepenult (or whatever other non-penult), which would denote antepenultimate (&c.) stress; e.g., I'm pretty sure that g[w]reidded, -ach, -af would be pronounced [ɡuˈrei.ðɛd], [—ðaχ], [—ðav], and not [ˈɡu.rei.ðɛd], [—ðaχ], [—ðav]. I've subsituted the entry's use of {{cy-adj}} with {{infl|cy|adjective}}, so as to remove any reference to the trisyllabic inflexions. In the entry's present state, I'm happy to declare this RFV passed.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 15:00, 14 August 2010 (UTC)