Talk:icicle plant

Deletion of "icicle plant"

I found only two legitimate (non-dictionary) references to "icicle plant" when I searched the internet. Neither referred to "A plant of the genus Mesembryanthemum". There is a redirect page in Wikipedia, but I do not think this qualifies the term for inclusion in Wiktionary. I would update the Wikipedia redirect but the "icicle plant" article does not exist at this time.User-duck (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2017 (UTC) Copied from RFDUser-duck (talk) 19:21, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to create icicle plant as an entry. Please RfV it, so that we can resolve this. I agree that it does not deserve any prominence in a definition of Mesembryathemum or M. crystallinum. It may merit a "rare" label, even if it survives RfV. DCDuring (talk) 19:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I have updated the "icicle plant" definitions using the quotations that were added. Thanks, everyone, for the reference material. I have removed the RFD tag.

I am almost complete with a Wikipedia article for Helichrysum thianschanicum. I was then planning to have the "icicle plant" page redirect to it.User-duck (talk) 22:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

RFD discussion: July 2017–February 2018

The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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icicle plant

I found only two legitimate (non-dictionary) references to "icicle plant" when I searched the internet. Neither referred to "A plant of the genus Mesembryanthemum". There is a redirect page in Wikipedia, but I do not think this qualifies the term for inclusion in Wiktionary. I would update the Wikipedia redirect but the "icicle plant" article does not exist at this time.User-duck (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

This should be at WT:RFV- but see the citations I have added to the entry. DTLHS (talk) 17:23, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I added some simple usages to supplement more mentiony cites that support specific definition. DCDuring (talk) 19:55, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

This is tricky, because 1) Mesembryanthemum used to be a wastebasket taxon containing a large number of species that are now classified in other genera, and 2) plant common names tend to be either a) mentioned along with the botanical name, but not used, or b) used, but not accompanied by botanical information. To complicate things further, Dorotheanthus bellidiformis was mostly known as Mesembryanthemum crinifolium, and Mesembryanthemum is neuter in gender, so specific epithets such as edulis and bellidiformis change to edule and bellidiforme. Allowing for that, it's easy to confirm that all of the species in the ice plant and icicle plant articles (except for Helichrysum thianschanicum of course) have been known for most of their history as species of Mesembryanthemum.

It looks to me like icicle plant, when applied to plants in the Aizoaceae, is just an alternative form of ice plant: the species that look like they're covered in ice aren't shaped like icicles and the species that have long, narrow leaves don't look like they're covered in ice. I suspect that ice plant was generalized from Mesembryanthemum crystallinum to the rest of the genus Mesembryanthemum as it was constituted at the time, with that connection becoming lost after the genus was split up. I've changed the articles at ice plant and icicle plant to reflect the above. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I dread having to cite many of the less common vernacular names because the story seems so often to be as you say. I wonder if we should just buryput some of the dictionary-only names in Usage notes. They may be somewhat useful to some users.

It seems highly likely that any good vernacular name will be (mis)applied to higher level taxa and similar-looking or -behaving organisms. Is it even worthwhile to document this?

icicle plant may be so rare as to fail RfV. DCDuring (talk) 00:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

• RFD kept: no consensus for deletion. Furthermore, Chuck Entz above seems to have updated the entry to address whatever problem he saw there. Any remaining doubt about existence (attestation, WT:ATTEST) of the term or its senses can be handled via RFV if required. When this RFD was started, the page revision was this revision, and the only definition said "A plant of the genus Mesembryanthemum, native to South Africa"; now there are two senses; the sense "Alternative form of ice plant" has 3+ quotations in the entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)