Talk:if that

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if that

This seems to me to be a standard, transparent English ellipsis. It would belong only in a phrasebook. DCDuring TALK 14:28, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

No OneLook reference has it. DCDuring TALK 14:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Delete Inclined towards deletion, but am making my comment less bold because of subsequent discussion. Seems similar to if necessary and if desired in terms of transparency. Equinox ◑ 14:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, it was added following a discussion in the Tea room. So there are users who might find it useful. SemperBlotto 14:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I guess we need to have operational criteria for including phrasebook entries. DCDuring TALK 14:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, the user in the Tea Room speculated that we lacked a meaning of if; we could handle this by including "if that" as a usage example of the relevant sense of if. Notably, the responders to the stackexchange discussion the user linked to in the TR also said "‘if that’ is just ‘if’ + ‘that’ + (ellipsis)". - -sche (discuss) 15:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't see which definition of (deprecated template usage) if or of (deprecated template usage) that means anything like "even less". SemperBlotto 15:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think it is close to sense 6 of "if", i.e. "even if". "Your car's worth less than $100, if that" means something like "even if the upper limit is as high as $100, which I dispute". Then again, "not worth $100, if that" is rather odd because it would appear to mean "not worth $100 even if it is worth $100". This is making my head feel funny. Equinox ◑ 15:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) even is a focusing modifier the exact position of which makes a great deal of difference. CGEL has the following example, "* You would * have * enjoyed * dancing * tonight *." The asterisks indicate possible positions for "even". Only positions 2 and 3 yield the same meaning. DCDuring TALK 15:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

What about "You, even, would have enjoyed dancing tonight", with (I think) the same meaning as "Even you..."; or "You even would have...", with (I think) the same meaning as "You would even have..."?​—msh210℠ (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yup. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 16:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

[e/c] I think it usually parses as "if the preceding is true", as in "Full color? It's four-color, if that". But sometimes that doesn't work, as in "without really giving to most of them more than a smattering, if even that", where if even that must mean either "if even a smattering" or "if giving to most of them a smattering", neither of which is obvious at all from the parts if and that. But I'm very not convinced that that nonobviousness is a lexical property of if that rather than a standard way of building sentences in English.​—msh210℠ (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The existence of if even that (as in the quotation above) is telling, also. I'm not sure what it's telling, though.  :-) ​—msh210℠ (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this, but I don't think it usually (ever?) parses as "if the preceding is true"; I think the "that" prefers (requires?) a narrower antecedent than that. To me, at least, something like "What do you mean, I love it? I just barely put up with it — if that!" sounds awkward, because the verb phrase "just barely put up with it" isn't a great antecedent for "that", whereas "What do you mean, my love for it? I am brimming with indifference about it — if that!" sounds . . . well, also awkward, but for different reasons. :-P   —Ruakh_TALK 15:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm having trouble analyzing this as sum of parts. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

(@Ruakh) How would you define it if it's kept?​—msh210℠ (talk) 17:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Isn't it an ellipsis of if it is that much/many? — Pingku^dimmi 17:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think so. To me it seems obvious how such an expression could be expanded. I don't think ellipses are intuitive to many non-native speakers. OTOH I don't think that lack of intuitiveness provides a reasonable basis for inclusion, except incidentally as part of phrases in a phrasebook.

It (the expression "if that") is a simple anaphora. The referent of (deprecated template usage) that is to be found usually in a preceding (relative to "that") clause, usually that (clause) immediately preceding (the use of "that") or the one before (the clause immediately preceding the use of "that").

The sense of (deprecated template usage) if is defined in MWOnline as "and perhaps not even". Not that this definition is substitutable with a number of possible collocates following "if", such as "then", "so", "there". A slightly different wording, omitting "even", is required before "anyone" and "anything". DCDuring TALK 18:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

• Keep. Ƿidsiþ 07:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
• Keep. It is not transparent at least for non-native speakers, since that is an adjective as in that much, not a pronoun. You can quite freely insert if any, if necessary, and if possible, which are simple ellipses, but can you put if that before the noun it modifies? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

kept -- Liliana • 17:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

if that much

Is if that much a variant? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)