Talk:nao

RFV discussion: November 2016–January 2017

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Breton nao

The form I find in both the Breton and French Wiktionaries is nav, which we also have an entry for. —CodeCat 21:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Failed, entry deleted. —CodeCat 21:07, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Vietnamese

@范俊華 Do you have a source for your claim that nao is a non-Sino-Vietnamese reading of 孬? 孬 is a northern dialect word that is not attested in Guangyun, meaning it is probably rather recent. I also don't see how it can give rise to the meaning "anxious; uneasy". RcAlex36 (talk) 15:24, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Also pinging @PhanAnh123. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:27, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't know why you bring the Guangyun up since it was the dictionary of the Song dynasty and 孬 is a rather late word (found in the Kangxi), but there is no denial that this term derieved from (dialectal) Chinese. 孬 was also used in Hán-Nôm writing (see nomfoundation.org). And the semantic meaning is quite self-explanatory.

范俊華 (talk) 17:44, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@范俊華 I would appreciate if there is a source supporting your claim. After all, Wiktionary is a dictionary, not your personal website. I also don't find the semantics particularly compelling. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36 I gave you a source (nomfoundation.org) it is a place which preserves the old texts written in Hán-Nôm, Hán-Nôm is the old colloquial writing system of Vietnam. There they used 孬 to write "nao" (to feel not good, anxious, uneasy), it is very likely a late loan considering that the word nao appears during the Nguyen dynasty. This isn't the first time that the Vietnamese language borrowed from late Chinese (see hãy). I don't see why the semantics are not compelling (not good --> to feel not good) and (cowardly --> anxious --> uneasy) semantic meanings change over time and through localization. (furthermore, where did I claim that Wiktionary is my personal website?) 范俊華 (talk) 19:31, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@范俊華: I know it's written as 孬 in Chu Nom, but it's possible that the character was chosen just for its sound. I actually 鬧 to be closer in semantics than 孬. I think it would be appropriate to bring the issue to etymology scriptorium, even though it may not attract a lot of response. Also, if I were you, I would have included words like "likely" or "probably" or "perhaps" in the etymology section instead of being so certain. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@PhanAnh123 Do you have an opinion on this matter? Is nao a "non-Sino-Vietnamese reading of Chinese 孬 (SV: nạo)"? RcAlex36 (talk) 06:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I just think that the evidence is too thin to either support or disprove the etymology, so I decided to remain non-committal. It's true though that cautions should be made when using Nôm characters to prove anything aside from sound value, even more so if the character's usage is late. PhanAnh123 (talk) 06:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)