Talk:older brother

RFD discussion: December 2017–February 2018

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older brother

Better as a redirect to the idiomatic [[big brother]] (older, not necessarily big), which is where the translations should be, IMO. I note that some of the translations are MWEs = older + brother. What value do such translations add? DCDuring (talk) 15:47, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

It adds the same value as other entries in Category:English non-idiomatic translation targets and it is what it states to be - a non-idiomatic English for translation purposes only. Keep, of course. And [[big brother]] is an alt form. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:20, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused by the above. For me, "older brother" is a completely normal and natural phrase in English. To call it "non-idiomatic" seems weird. "big brother" is noticeably more informal. Mihia (talk) 01:15, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

At Wiktionary we use "non-idiomatic" to mean "able to be understood as a sum of its parts". Older brother is non-idiomatic in this sense because it means simply "older" + "brother". The other meaning of "non-idiomatic" ("not natural-sounding") is generally avoided in RFD and other discussions here. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 09:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh, OK, I see. Mihia (talk) 18:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

• Keep. Older brother is unambiguous, and should house translations for a literal older male sibling. "Big" can refer to physical size, or even to the relationship between nonsiblings where one is perceived as the protector of the other, not to mention the "government" sense. See, e.g., 2013, Sunseria Jackson, A Journey of Faith: My Journey from Christianity to Islam, p. 92: "Even though he was younger than me, I felt like I had a big brother who always had my back". bd2412 T 01:51, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
  • In your example, it's being used in the "older brother" sense. So I don't see the relevance.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:55, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
    • I was using that specifically to illustrate the dichotomy, but there are plenty of examples that do not specify the age differential, or specify one that would not fall into the usual sense of an "older" brother. For example: 2008, James Paul Aka Pablo, My Poor Dad, p. 19: "My godfather, David, was also a firefighter. He was like a big brother to me. He taught me how to make a sling shot, using the forked limb of a tree and rubber from dad's old bicycle tires". The implication is that "big brother" implies acting a certain way, even though a godfather is likely to be much older than an actual "older brother". bd2412 T 19:26, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
    • Actually, here is an even better illustration: 2003, Anne Jaffe (quoting Aviv Livnat), "Israeli jazz musicians to perform in Kansas City", Kansas City Jewish Chronicle: "We were growing up with no father. I was the big brother in a way. But I think we were both big brothers to each other". Clearly two people can't be "older brothers" to each other. Therefore, "older brother" and "big brother" mean something different, and should be maintained separately. bd2412 T 20:06, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
      • Two people can't be older brothers to each other in an Amelia-Bedelia-esquely literal way, no, but they can be like older brothers, filling the role of older brothers, which is what your citation is getting at. Googling "older brothers to each other", I see that phrase is used the same way. Nonetheless, I would tend to say keep older brother per RightGot, as a translation target if nothing else (and keep the translations centralized at older brother). - -sche (discuss) 22:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
• Keep. Translations should be at older brother. big brother is informal and a bit childish sounding. RightGot (talk) 02:12, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
• RFD passed. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)