Talk:stunning and brave

RFV discussion: July 2022–February 2023

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

---

stunning and brave

Rfv-sense: "(Internet slang, derogatory, ironic) Expecting praise for something that is too insignificant or ridiculous."

Could be, based on South Park episode. Any uptake? DCDuring (talk) 02:48, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Definition is too broad. I've only ever seen this phrase used to insult trans people, which matches the context of the original South Park ep. (I've also seen it used to refer to people who weren't expecting praise, but I'm not sure if that's an actual shift in meaning or if it's just another example of how insults naturally become more encompassing over time.) Binarystep (talk) 04:32, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The definition is too narrow, it's basically the usual senses + sarcasm, probably originally insulting trans people but now often anyone; the choice of words is ?idiomatic? or at least memetic, but since they occur in either order and with interpolations, I'm not sure this entry is idiomatic. Here is one person and another referring to AOC being arrested, and Theresa May refusing to clap, Biden burning fuel to visit Saudis to fight climate change, and the BBC hiring/airing Black people, as "stunning and brave"; some could be saying the act is actually "too insignificant or ridiculous", but e.g., the person saying the BBC is "stunning and brave" for hiring "20% Black in a country that's 3% Black" clearly thinks it is not insignificant; some of these might be claiming/imputing that the person expects praise, but it's not a requirement that the person actually expect praise, since it's also used of minorities simply existing. Australian gamer Modest Pelican refers to bad moves he makes (in several videos, although I can't find one offhand) as e.g. "I make a stunning, and also brave, decision to [do some inadvisable thing]" or "brave, and also stunning", and here's someone referring to Australian vegans getting vasectomies as "stunning and also brave"; in the reverse order, here is someone dismissing a ban on swastikas as "brave, and also stunning". The reverse order, "brave and stunning", comes closest to be restricted to insulting trans people, though even there you see some examples dismissing other things. If kept, we need to think about how to define it, maybe resorting to {{n-g}}. Obviously, non-sarcastic, sincere use also exists, and seems to be the main use in books. - -sche (discuss) 20:04, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand "expecting" as even potentially part of the definition. It seems that it is a group that believes the person or action deserves to be called stunning and brave, but that the speaker and his ilk do not. The individual or action called stunning and brave and the person's expectations need never be involved. DCDuring (talk) 22:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The Modest Pelican uses sound more like the British euphemism brave, or are at least blending with it (i.e. the brave decision to do an undesirable thing). Unsure if it’s also used in Australia, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Theknightwho (talk) 19:29, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

It could be a blend in some cases, but he's referencing the meme / using that pair of words because it's become a phrase for people in a certain cultural sphere to identify themselves with. I can't find the example where he calls his bad decision in a stealthy hitman game to start a big gunfight which makes him lose "stunning and brave", but here he says "I make the stunning and brave decision to become a fisherman" as his boring, legal 9 to 5 — I suppose that actually fits the definition currently in the entry (it's an insignificant choice he's jocularly suggesting is praiseworthy), though I think it also fits my sense that it's just sarcastic use of the words + the memetic nature of the exact word choice. - -sche (discuss) 21:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Not really worse than humblebrag, is it? There is implied judgement there that the person is (i) bragging and (ii) trying to sound humble about it. Equinox ◑ 21:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Another phrasing is "so stunning, so brave". I suppose an argument for keeping [assuming it passes RFV with a significantly changed definition], with soft or hard redirects from attested variants, would be that the particular choice of words is memetic and has a particular etymology (South Park) and connotations (mostly used by rightwingers, often as a transphobic meme, somewhat like use of uppity as a racist dogwhistle). Counter-argument is that it's still basically just sarcastic use of the words, and while we have a usage note in uppity because we already have an entry because it's a single word, we can't possibly cover every memetic set of words, when they're not limited to a particular order or phrase, just using both in the same vicinity is the meme/dogwhistle. Here is a US Republican describing a transgender criminal as "stunning and brave": AFAICT he's not saying she's insignificant, and "ridiculous" also doesn't make sense there, nor do I see any indication she (or anyone else) expected praise, it seems like he just means the words sarcastically, or even vacuously/meaninglessly, and just chose those particular words because they're the meme. (Literal, nonsarcastic use is still the main use I come across, btw, especially in books.) - -sche (discuss) 21:11, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

(If we can find enough cites of the nonliteral use, I'm coming around to the idea it might be idiomatic or useful to have an entry on, even if there's variation. IDK.) - -sche (discuss) 14:51, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Another problem: if it's "sarcastic" (as glossed) but means "expecting praise", then we should infer that it really means "not expecting praise"! Clearly that wasn't the intention. I think the "expecting" angle is a red herring; there is no need for the stunning and brave person to "expect" anything. Equinox ◑ 23:47, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

How about something along the lines of # {{non-gloss|Used sarcastically, to suggest someone or something is bad despite being hyped as good; used to express dislike}}? (Or just omit "sarcastically".) I think(?) that might cover the range of uses from cases where it sort-of expresses a meaning (like the tweet about Biden burning fuel to visit the Saudis) to cases where it's just a vacuous insult. - -sche (discuss) 03:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

How's this, changing the definition to a non-gloss "Used to express disrespect, in particular to suggest someone (especially a transgender person) or something has been promoted as good but is actually bad." ? (Poking around, a user on another cite offered the definition "pandering to the woke crowd", but that only seems to cover e.g. representation in video games, and not the way the phrase gets used to describe a minority simply existing.) - -sche (discuss) 01:58, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

A collocation ironically employed is still but a collocation? Fay Freak (talk) 02:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you suggesting it's SOP? I've wondered that myself. Feel free to RFD it. (I'd probably !vote abstain. On one hand, the choice of words is memetic and does convey connotations, on the other hand the order is very variable and the denotation varies from "the usual meaning of the words + sarcasm" to vacuosity.) - -sche (discuss) 03:21, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

 Cited. Ioaxxere (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

RFV Passed. Ioaxxere (talk) 22:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)