Talk:submarine pitch

RFD discussion: November–December 2016

The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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submarine pitch

The definition's not quite right, side-arm is not the same as submarine. However in trying to redefine it I'm struggling to find a better wording than 'a pitch that's submarine'. Not even that common, as submarine usually qualifies a pitcher not a pitch. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:35, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Not a particularly useful correction, but on Ngrams 'submarine pitch' and 'submarine pitcher' are about equally common. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:30, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: definition: underhand is a useful word for the definition, IMO. I find that WP almost always has an article that can help, though not necessarily an article with a title the same as our headword. DCDuring TALK 11:06, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Keep. Meaning not predictable from components, except in a distantly metaphorical way. DCDuring TALK 11:08, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Actually no, submarine ("underhand") + pitch ("delivery of a pitcher in baseball"). Renard Migrant (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

To mean an underhand delivery of a pitcher in baseball. You'll be telling me next that green grass is grass that's green. How unpredictable! Renard Migrant (talk) 11:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Also underhand has no sense to cover this; submarine is in reality like sidearm just a bit lower, it's not the same as an underhand throw in a child's game where the aim is to throw the ball slowly. It's not the same as softball either where the pitch comes underarm which a straight arm. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:56, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

w:Submarine pitch and w:Submarine pitcher before direct to w:Submarine (baseball). Renard Migrant (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

My hypotheses about the evolution:

Metaphor → submarine delivery/pitch → submarine pitcher → submarine as adjective in thrown-ball sports.

This a recurring conceptual problem with regards to the evolution of extended senses from metaphors: the phrase with the embedded metaphor can be reconstrued as SoP. IMO, when one of the components of the phrase now takes meaning only in applications directly related to the originating metaphorical phrase, as submarine does in this case, in our definition at least, it is silly to view the originating phrase as SoP. In this case, the adjective meaning may now apply to other thrown-ball sports, whether or not our definition indicates that. AHD has: "Thrown with or characterized by a low sidearm or underhand motion": a submarine-style pitcher. DCDuring TALK 21:28, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

So you're in favor of deleting now, I take it? Renard Migrant (talk) 23:15, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

We need a term for these, à la "fried egg". How about mobile phone (since they are now just called "mobiles"?). Equinox ◑ 22:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

That's not really comparable as this is just submarine + pitch. Renard Migrant (talk) 00:10, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

@Equinox, Renard Migrant: This is very much like fried egg, except that submarine may have taken on the ability to modify other nouns besides synonyms of pitch and related terms like pitcher. AHD's example show submarine style. One can also find submarine in the sense in question modifying ball, motion, hurler, curve ball, slider, sinker, angle, throw, flip. DCDuring TALK 00:38, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

• Fix and keep: Purplebackpack89 21:04, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Kept: No comments in almost a month and only the nominator voted delete. Purplebackpack89 16:12, 9 December 2016 (UTC)