Talk:tinidor

tinidor/tenedor

@Ysrael214 I remember @TagaSanPedroAko and I discussed this before. "Tenedor" is ridiculous since no one says that. Everyone says "tinidor". I think we decided back then to just leave it in "tinidor". What do you remember, @TagaSanPedroAko? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:03, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Even though it seems that no one says this, this is KWF standard similar to Miyerkoles and koryente. tinidor is therefore proscribed despite its common use. Following MMP Section 7.1

https://kwf.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/MMP_Full.pdf

But sure let's hear what was discussed before. Ysrael214 (talk) 21:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: In addition, "tinidor" falls under the established Spanish borrowings that should not need to be respelled to fit present official spelling rules. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko If so, why are the latest dictionaries changing it unlike "sibuyas", which is an established Spanish borrowing? (though probably because the original word is cebolla and the word is modified in the plural form)

The Early Modern borrowings I get but "Miyerkoles" is a word way way back but they still changed it. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:45, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

MANWAL SA MASINOP NA PAGSULAT (MMP), says this:

Mahalagang mohon hinggil sa mga lumang salita mulang Espanyol ang mga nakalista sa Diccionario Tagalog-Hispano (1914) ni Pedro Serrano-Laktaw hanggang sa mga entri sa Diksyunaryo Tesauro Pilipino-Ingles (1972) ni Jose Villa Panganiban. Nakatanghal sa inilistang mga lumang hiram na salita mulang Espanyol ang naganap na pagsasaabakada ng mga tunog na banyaga gayundin ang pagbaluktot sa anyo ng mga orihinal na salita

but Diccionario Tagalog-Hispano writes it as tenedor. I have no access to Diksyunaryo Tesauro Pilipino-Ingles though. Although I saw in Concise English Tagalog Dictionary, also by JVP, listed as FORK. tenedor. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)And

@Mar vin kaiser @TagaSanPedroAko I just got access to JVP Diksyunaryo Tesauro Pilipino-Ingles, it's still tenedor. So "tinidor" doesn't fall under established Spanish borrowings that should not be respelled. Ysrael214 (talk) 00:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Yeah I also saw the JVP entry already. I'm thinking, we can be prescriptive on the spelling, but not on the pronunciation. If no one says that like /teneˈdoɾ/, then we don't put that as the pronunciation even if the spelling is "tenedor", we put the pronunciation /tiniˈdoɾ/, because no one says /teneˈdoɾ/ in Tagalog. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Not sure on that. Another option is to say in the usage notes that most people pronounce it as tinidor more or something, or instead of focusing on the pronunciation, more on saying the other variant is used more nowadays. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:01, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: That would imply that Tagalog speakers actually once said "te-ne-dor" in real life to mean "fork". And I don't think that happened. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:00, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Source? Dictionaries have been consistent with "tenedor" and that's not even because of the 2013 orthography rule. Ysrael214 (talk) 17:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Orthographically yes, dictionaries have been consistent with "tenedor", I agree and concede. But I don't think it necessarily translates to exact phonological representation. At least not necessarily. The only danger here is describing a pronunciation that never actually existed in Tagalog. But if it did exist, or does exist currently, then no more issue. We would simply label the pronunciation /teneˈdoɾ/ as either archaic or uncommon, like what we did with tainga. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 16:26, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I have no idea on that if it did exist before and we cannot assume only based on current days where tinidor is more common. A lot of things have happened such as education changes (possibly the Surián ng Wikang Pambansâ before promoting abakada by Lope K Santos that people are started to being taught tinidor instead), media (maybe people in movies spoke "tinidor" and became more used), but of course these are just possibilities. I have no source, I'm just saying we can't directly assume that people didn't speak it that way before just because in our current time we don't especially during the Spanish period where they can possibly hear more Spanish people saying "tenedor" directly.

But of course, what matters is the current period and not the Spanish time where there's a possibility they spoke "tenedor", so which is why I suggest "usage notes" instead (maybe instead of saying it is more used nowadays, let's just say tinidor is more used, period ) to promote the other variant instead of the pronunciation. As people can read this as "tenedor" clearly unlike "tainga", where tainga can be read (in our time) as both as tay.nga and ta.i.nga in the same spelling. Marking it as "this is actually pronounced tinidor" would also be dangerous and misrepresentation if it did exist.

Besides, anyone reading the page seeing the usage notes would know that tinidor is used more if that's the concern. Ysrael214 (talk) 18:23, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Also I found this. https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=96TtLaiI7kYC&pg=PA58&dq=tenedor+tagalog&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik9rmK0pD7AhUTpVYBHR7oAzUQ6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=tenedor%20tagalog&f=false Ysrael214 (talk) 23:26, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214, TagaSanPedroAko: Just a final word on this from me, I guess, I still find it weird that for KWF, it's ok to have sumbrero (not sombrero), kusina (not kosina), bulsa (not bolsa), suplado (not soplado), tindero (not tendero), but bombero (not bumbero), tenedor (not tinidor). When you look at it like this, it kinda looks arbitrary. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Well, not sure if it's arbitrary. The thing is they just follow the previous dictionaries from Serrano Laktaw to Panganiban. Panganiban even has kosinero and kusinà, in the same dictionary. Kusinà was separated because of the added glottal stop maybe but who knows, but KWF fixed that here: https://kwfdiksiyonaryo.ph/ to be kusinero. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:54, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Yeah I noticed, that UP Dik/Diksiyonaryo.ph has "kosinero", but KWF Dik has "kusinero". But the principle used by the Manwal is to preserve the Spanish vowels. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Preserved to be closer to Spanish if not found in a previous dictionary between the time of Serrano Laktaw and Panganiban. Maybe they found it somewhere to make kusinero adjust? Dunno. Ysrael214 (talk) 09:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)