Talk:ulunan

Source

@Ysrael214 What's your source for ulúnan in Tagalog? What's in dictionaries is ulunán, and the "ulúnan" in Diksiyonaryo.ph is not for Tagalog. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:24, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Fair enough. Found ulunán in Vocabulario de la lengua tagala as well. Ysrael214 (talk) 22:38, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Although, there's this entry in Vocabulario - OLO. (pp.) Cabeza, which has the pc. marker on derivatives on words that have the ultimate stress: ex. "Olohan (pc.) De gran cabeza.", "Olohan (pc.) cabecera de la cama.", but "Olonan, de almohada" (the pillow meaning instead of the place near the head meaning) is left intact without (pp.) nor (pc.), which makes me think that this is meant to follow Olo's penultimate stress rule (pp. marker). So far, all words I saw that doesn't have (pp.) or (pc.) on the derived words seem to follow the entry's pronunciation rule. I'll read on the dictionary notes to confirm. Ysrael214 (talk) 02:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: I've reinvestigated the sources that we have for this, namely modern dictionaries after WWII and Vocabulario. My conclusion is:

1. All sources give an ultimate stress. No Tagalog source gives a penultimate stress.
2. All modern source don't have the word "ulon", and when they have the word "ulunan", they list it as a derivative of "ulo". And the definition given is "head or top end" (of a bed).
3. In Vocabulario, I see three mentions of "olonan". 1. "Olonan, de almohada" (listed under olo), 2. "PAHAÁN pc. Lo que está hácia los pies de la cama, opuesto á la cabecera, que es olonan", and 3. "Cabecera de la cama - olon pc. olonan pc. Olohan pc.".

My conclusion is the following:

1. No Tagalog source gives a specific definition of "pillow" or "anything used to rest one's head", so I think that should be removed.a
2. As for the "bedhead" definition, it seems to be clearly shown in the 3rd quote I gave from Vocabulario, with synonyms "uluhan" and "ulon". But at the same time, modern dictionaries still have the phrase "head of the bed" or the definition "head of something" then connects it to a bed. So I don't think it's fair to give this an obsolete label.
3. No source, modern or old, has connected the word "ulunan" (OLONAN) with the word "ulon". The closest to this is my third quote, where it lists "olon", "olonan", and "olohan" together, but that itself does not provide a derivation claim, but merely a list of synonyms. So I think there should only be one etymology in this Tagalog entry, namely "ulo+nan", and then in addition add that it might be originally "ulon+an", then the Proto-Malayo-Polynesian word (which btw where did you get this, I can't find it in ACD).
4. Modern dictionaries define it as a "head or top end" of something, and the most common example is a bed, so I think this is the meaning of this word, at least in modern Tagalog.
5. As for the definitions "area near the head" and "anything that uses the head", I can't find them in any source, but knowing modern Tagalog, it makes sense to me, so I guess there's room to include that, but I usually don't trust myself, so I'd look for quotes where the word is used this way.

So what do you think? If you're good with this, I'll make the changes. Or if you have other observations or other sources that I don't know about, please put them here. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Please proceed. This is so long ago that I forgot my findings on this, but here's the ACD https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-s_q.htm#27866

For the pillow, isn't that the "Olonan, de almohada"? Ysrael214 (talk) 13:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Ah yes, "de almohada", I forgot about that part. I don't know why there's a "de" there, but ok yeah, I guess there's some merit in maintaining the definition "pillow" or something of that sort, but perhaps as an obsolete definition. Thanks for the ACD link. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)