Talk:wergeld

RFV

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

---

Rfv-sense "any recompense"; added here. I can't even find the quotation currently in the entry. - -sche (discuss) 23:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Not getting anything. The context is given as heathenry and paganism so I tried the search string wergeld heathenry|paganism. Nothing relevant turned up.

Contexts don't work that way: just try finding non-dictionary cites for colloquial terms that contain the word "colloquial", and you'll see what I mean. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The original definition said "homicide or other serious crimes" which now is just "homicide". This needs to go back in in some form; wergeld was payable for other crimes, although we would not always consider these serious crimes now - such as adultery of a wife or loss of a moustache. I'll work on some cites. SpinningSpark 21:40, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

...and once that is done, this will be pretty much included in sense #1, except for the unsourced paganism context. SpinningSpark 17:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I have problems with the definition: there are two senses besides the rfved one: the payment itself, and the amount the payment would be if a person were murdered, i.e., their worth. Many of the cites use the second sense, with the first only implied, if there at all. I also think the fact that it was to be paid to the one considered the injured party should be kept: a fine and a payment for damages are two very different things. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The only one of the citations which references a crime other than murder is Stuntz' "A man who committed adultery with another man's wife had to pay the wronged husband one-tenth the amount of his wergeld." But this does not use "wergeld" to mean "a payment made by the perpetrator of a crime (other than murder)": it says the man who committed adultery had to pay the wronged "husband one-tenth the amount of his wergeld", i.e. one tenth of his worth / the amount that would be due for murder. - -sche (discuss) 19:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

John Briggs (Crime And Punishment In England: An Introductory History) does say wergeld was paid for other crimes, though. - -sche (discuss) 19:18, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Literally hundreds of citations could be added for wergeld and adultery, eg [1][2][3][4][5]. And that's before we get on to loss of moustaches and fingers [6]. Possibly the wergeld is being used as a scale against which to set fines rather than a name for the fine itself, but in any case the word is being used in numerous contexts outside of murder. SpinningSpark 23:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok. (after e/c + similar to Chuck's comment, above:) As for the latest change to the definition — my initial reaction is that "a payment made" and "the worth of a person" should be separate senses. (OTOH, we and some other dictionaries do only have one (non-figurative) sense of "price".) - -sche (discuss) 02:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

How do you like it now?

1. (historical, in Germanic law) The monetary value assigned to a person, set according to their rank, used to determine the compensation paid by the perpetrator of a crime to the victim, or the victim's kindred in the case of homicide; the compensation itself.

Such a simple concept for them, so difficult for us... SpinningSpark 09:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I also can't find the cite for the rfved sense, but it looks like a story in which the wergild is for the death of her father. The cite should be removed: it uses a different spelling, and doesn't seem to use this sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:41, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the story is from Norse mythology, here is a version with preview. So nothing to do with modern paganism and everything to do with the historic Germanic legal system. SpinningSpark 09:46, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the pagan sense which we all seem to agree needed to go. I've split the remaining sense to distinguish between "abstract monetary value used to determine reparation" and "payment made as reparation". That seems to resolve the RFV (any tweaking, or even merging, of definitions is an RFC matter now that both definitions have a couple clear citations, with more clearly available). - -sche (discuss) 06:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Italian descendant

I'd like to signal that from this word derives also the italian "guadrigildo" (arcaic), introduced by the law code of german population of Lombards ("Edictum Rothari") — This unsigned comment was added by 89.96.244.8 (talk).

Blood money

Regarding diff, perhaps the content of the two entries should be merged in the other direction? "Blood money" may be the more general and common term. - -sche (discuss) 19:17, 2 November 2018 (UTC)