Template talk:yi-conj

As far as I can tell, this template seems to cover everything except the ־סטו (-stu) form. As it is regularly formed, we don't lose much by omitting it, but perhaps for the sake of completeness it ought to be added in. @Angr, Wikitiki89: any thoughts? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: If you can figure out how to present it in the table, I will add it to the module. --WikiTiki89 23:03, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't know what would be best. Maybe a little footnote from the 2SG form that goes to a line of prose at the bottom, just above the composed forms, giving the form and explaining what it is. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:09, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

There's a lot of blank space in the table; I'd say there's plenty of room to put it in next to the du zogst form. Maybe split the du zogst cell into two and put zogstu in one of them? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

I've no problem with that either. Whatever fits, I suppose. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:03, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

There's plenty of room for a short word like זאָגסטו (zogstu), but not necessarily for האָרעוועסטו (horevestu). Would we need to do this for the compound tenses as well? --WikiTiki89 19:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

I think that would be unnecessary. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

• @Wikitiki89: It seems that in the past, there's been some use of {{{p}}} as an alias for {{{past}}}, but this is no longer supported; can you either support this or fix the remaining uses? Also, hoping that you can add in -stu somehow, given that we seem to agree that it ought to go in. Thanks! —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:31, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

  Oh, and we also need a way to give a second past participle for פֿאַרלירן (farlirn). Sorry that I keep asking for stuff; I have a long technical wishlist for Yiddish templates, but the vast majority of entries are supported with our current capabilities. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:09, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

  @Metaknowledge: But then what would we do with the composed forms tables? --WikiTiki89 15:59, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

  Just use the first (i.e., more common) past participle. But the template should still acknowledge that both exist. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

  Ok. --WikiTiki89 20:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Separable prefixes

Can someone add an option for separable prefixes (e.g. ער לייגט צו, ער האָט צוגעלייגט)? --Shad Veyosiv (talk) 09:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

And we also need support for מוחל זײַן and the like. I just don't know how to do it — I feel like I've been pinging @Benwing2, but if you want to help, it'd be appreciated. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@Shad Veyosiv, Metaknowledge I'll look into adding support for separable prefixes. What is מוחל זײַן? Benwing2 (talk) 14:39, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Can someone also make a list of all the separable prefixes, or at least the most common ones? Do any need special translit? Benwing2 (talk) 15:09, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2, thank you. An inexhaustive list of separable prefixes: avek, on, arop, aroys, aroyf, arum, arunter, ariber, arayn, oys, um, unter, durkh, mit, tsu, tsurik. As for מוחל זײַן, it's an example of a verb formed with a (usually Hebrew) component that is not inflected and a weak verb (זײַן or האָבן) that is inflected; we don't have any way of providing conjugation for those. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:03, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

ayn, op, bay. --Shad Veyosiv (talk) 19:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I suggest using a sep= parameter to provide the separable part of the verb, as in {{nl-conj-wk}}. It's more clear than the positional parameter that the German templates use. —Rua (mew) 20:30, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Shad Veyosiv, Metaknowledge, Benwing2, Rua, |converb= fails for prefixes ending in a consonant that has separate medial and final forms. At אײַנמאַכן (aynmakhn), if I write |converb=אײַנ, it outputs איך מאַך אײַנ‎ with a medial nun, and if I write |converb=אײַן it outputs אײַןמאַכנדיק and אײַןגעמאַכט‎ with a final nun. Help! —Mahāgaja · talk 16:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja I am looking into this. The current modules are super-messy and need to be rewritten somewhat. Ultimately they should be redone the way I rewrote the German verb conjugation module, but that is a longer-term project. Do you have a good reference for Yiddish verbs? There is the Wikipedia article on Yiddish grammar but it isn't too comprehensive, e.g. it doesn't indicate all of the sound changes that happen with the second-person singular present tense suffix סט. Benwing2 (talk) 19:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Not yet, I don't, but I recently ordered Yiddish: A Linguistic Introduction by Neil G. Jacobs so we'll see what book has to say. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:24, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

That's a good book, and I'd also recommend Birnbaum's classic Yiddish: A Survey and a Grammar. I can help in answering specific questions, so feel free to ping me if any arise. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 03:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge:. That reminds me I do have Birbaum's Grammatik der Jiddischen Sprache. Is that the original that the book you mentioned was translated from? Or are they two different books? —Mahāgaja · talk 06:02, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: I've never read it, but I think the Survey and Grammar is more updated (though I'm sure it would be fine for these purposes). —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:39, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2:: My copy of Jacobs has arrived. Let me know if there's anything specific you'd like me to look up. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:30, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja First off, the rules for assimilation of all the various verb endings with final stem consonants. There are at least the endings ט נ סט, maybe others. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 06:36, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge Feel free to chime in if you know these rules or have a reference for them. Benwing2 (talk) 06:37, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I am away from my library and slightly hesitant to use my knowledge as a reference, because written Yiddish does not represent most of the assimilation that is done in speech. I believe the only assimilation represented in writing is that if the stem ends in -s or -t and the suffix begins with the same letter, it should not be doubled. (The rules for the suffix -(e)n are unnecessary because you can get that form from the pagetitle.) —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:12, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge What about after צ or ז? Benwing2 (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

In pronunciation, they assimilate, but not in writing. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 03:13, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Here's what Jacobs says (p. 216): "Degemination occurs with stem-final c and inflectional suffix: /hejs-st/ → הייסט hejst; /arbət-t/ → אַרבעט arbet. Root-final z devoices and degeminates phonetically (but not orthographically) before suffix -st: /muz/ + /st/ → מוזסט [must]; likewise root-final /d/ before suffix -t: red + t → רעדט [ret]. Root-final /st/ + suffix -st surface as a single sequence of /st/: mest-n ‘to measure’ → (דו) מעסט du mest ‘you measure’". Earlier, on p. 129, he quotes Zaretski 1926 as saying that this simplification of /st/ + /st/ to /st/ also happens in the superlative of adjectives ending in /st/, but in that case it's only phonetic but not orthographic: "one writes ernststər, bavuststər … but these are avoided in the spoken language." What Jacobs doesn't mention, but other books do, is that the reduction of the 2nd person singular ending from /st/ to /t/ also happens after other sibilants: /zets-st/ → זעצסט [zetst], /kuʃ-st/ → [kuʃt]. I can't tell if this is spelled קושט or קושסט – @Metaknowledge, do you know? Birnbaum spells it קושט, but he also writes לאזט rather than לאָזסט for the 2nd person singular of לאָזן – I guess Yiddish spelling hadn't been standardized yet in 1918. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:43, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: It's all an unstandardised mess, which makes it hard to use BGC as a guide... I think Birnbaum is concerned with morphophonology, not orthography (and we follow YIVO rules, but he didn't!). I think we should stick with Jacobs's rules: what I said above, plus the st + st = st rule. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:24, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, that book is on libgen. PUC – 13:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)