User talk:荒巻モロゾフ/Syllable table of Japanese dialects

more resources

https://onemahina.stores.jp/items/608a534fdf62a906cc065b74, Nagata et al. (1977-1980), Nakasone (1983), Sakihara (2006), JLect, Iwakura (1941), https://www.musashinoshoin.co.jp/shoseki/view/1017/%E4%B8%8E%E8%AB%96%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8/6, Jarosz (2015), etc.

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): Chuterix (talk) 01:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Also note in case nagata et al 1977-1980 and nakasone 1983, etc. できなければ if it cant afford, you can wait until 2024 for ryukyu-go onsei database to reopen. Chuterix (talk) 01:06, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix: Can you relate the relevant part of these books on Wiktionary? -- Huhu9001 (talk) 01:15, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Another resource

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): Another great resource would be Hirayama 1966, 1967; although I have no access to the text; judging by Thorpe (1983) and Vovin (2010)'s usage of it for Ryukyuan cognates (and a lack of the dictionaries mentioned above except Nakasone (1983)), along with the contents of Hirayama (1966) here, I think this could be a great resource.

I only have access to Sakihara (2006); the paperback version. Chuterix (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Hattori (1968)'s review here Chuterix (talk) 01:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Ryukyuan dialects

@荒巻モロゾフ Does your gendai nihongo hogen daijiten contain all ryukyuan dialects?

Kikai-jima (喜界島方言), Nakijin (今帰仁方言; but I don't know?), Amami (Nase, Yamatohama, etc.), Okinawan (沖縄語; ?; shuri, naha?), Oki-no-Erabu (沖永良部島方言), Toku-no-Shima (徳之島方言), Yoron (与論方言), and the Southern ryukyuan dialects (Miyako (hirara), Yaeyama (ishigaki), and Yonaguni (与那国島)? Chuterix (talk) 02:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

In Thorpe (1983) I believe it's known as Nakijin Yonamine dialect. Chuterix (talk) 02:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Or atleast a resource you have not mentioned yet? Chuterix (talk) 02:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I know tarama, shuri, hatoma dialect is public Chuterix (talk) 02:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

That book is useless for enquire whether the vowel had been *i or *e / *u or *o. The Okinawan dialect given there, Sesoko dialect is an intermediate form of Kunigami and Okinawan, which lacks aspiration occurs in the case of *a/e/o that Nakijin dialect has. Similarly it lacks all dialects distributed in Amami islands other than Naze, which is considerably affected by Standard Japanese or lacks the difference above. And also that book lacks Yonaguni, Yaeyama dialects other than Hatoma totally.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 02:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ Still, I believe that book could be useful for if cognates are attested everywhere in the Ryukyus (e.g. Thorpe (1983). Otherwise there could be a yamato kotoba that's attested in dialects but sparse attestation in Ryukyus (e.g. 足 (a-shi, “foot”); such example lacks attestations in Ryukyuan).

This is how @Kwékwlos got most of his Ryukyuan descendants. Meanwhile I use both Thorpe (1983) and a combination of every dictionary possible when Thorpe cognates don't exist(see Proto-Ryukyuan *kane; despite not in Thorpe (1983) there's literally real cognates everywhere or recently *osu (“mortar”)).

If I remember correctly, in word medial position sometimes Amami (Yamatohama) goes to e or ï for PR *e, but only i for PR *i. Chuterix (talk) 03:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Similarly it lacks all dialects distributed in Amami islands other than Naze, which is considerably affected by Standard Japanese or lacks the difference above.

@荒巻モロゾフ: Oh. Chuterix (talk) 03:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

One example of Yamatohama innovation is PR *muna (“empty”); Okinawan (and every other?) dialects point to *muna but Yamatohama possibly innovated via *mona.

This is also the problem with PJ *mura (“gathering; village”), which medial o is only in Yamatohama. Not even preserved in Peninsular Japonic nor Jeju. Chuterix (talk) 03:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Formerly *mora or *mOra. Chuterix (talk) 03:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

On the /mo/, there seems to have some funny behavior that follows never the simple mid-vowel rising theory believed prevailingly.

The so called Peninsular Japonic is heavily far-fetched (especially Vovin, Beckwith and Janhunen are notorious), we shouldn't believe that things are the sister clade of Japonic or the assertion that Japonic is an alien to Japan. The Pseudo-Goguryeoic (I believe so) toponyms that extracted from Samguk Sagi, which is written in 1145 or late Heian period in Japan, doesn't have the features older than Middle Japanese (cf. 甲比古次 kai-kuji [kappikwoch in Old Korean reading] / 穴口 [海口] kai-kuchi / 江華 Ganghwa must stand for native Korean word 개 (kay, “江: estuary”) + 곶 (kwoc, “華: flower”, also synonym of "串: cape"); that is apparently ateji in Middle Japanese, which has experienced disappearing of medial *p, change of *tui > ti > tɕi (or getting 5 vowel system and /t/ before /i/ becoming affricate; note that the proto form of 口 kuchi is *kutui). I could list any number of other funny points on them up).

Being dreamless thought though, I believe most of Peninsular Japonic are spoken/named by Japanese traders on the sea or those who would be called 倭寇, Japanese pirates, later, they must were never expelled from Korea even after fall of Baekje.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 04:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ Are we free to add to the chart? There are a bunch of Ryukyuan stop consonants missing at the moment. Theknightwho (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

What's the kind of stop consonants? If it were a kind of Ōgami Miyako /s/, /ts/, they are regarded as allophones of the case followed by /ï/, like /sï/, /tsï/.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 12:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

...doesn't have the features older than Middle Japanese...

@荒巻モロゾフ If that's so, then what explains why 水 'water' or 川 'river' always matches with 買 (MC meaX)? This is close to PJ *mentu (“water”). A wokou dialect? Chuterix (talk) 13:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

That is Koreanic, not Japonic. 買 is read ᄆᆡ (moy) in Middle Korean, so that can be linked with 믈 (mul) (> 물 (mul)). Buyeo languages including Goguryeo is lost clade of Koreanic, I believe.

And the Japonic word is needed internal reconstruction with *mi / *mina. In this case I'm convinced that the *meNtu is combination of two morphemes *meN (< **min, "water") + *tu (< **tum, doublet of 粒(つぶ) (tsubu, “grain, drop”), cf. Old Eastern Japanese 西美度 <semi₁do₁> (variant of 清水(しみづ) (shimizu)), Tsugaru/Matsumae dialect メドチ medochi (variant of 蛟(みづち) (mizuchi), local equivalent of Kappa), 走水(はしうど) (hashiudo, an old toponym of Kobe, note that /mi/ → /u/ change; the second vowel of 水(みづ) (mizu) has strange ancient local variant /o/, which can suggest <um → o> shift which like Latin to Romance languages has)) 荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 00:31, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

This is fascinating stuff, I appreciate your insights. The cross-linguistic comparison of sound shifts is particularly compelling; I noticed a similar cross-linguistic trend in affricating /k/ sounds when followed by front vowels /i/ and /e/, as in Latin and Okinawan /ki/, /ke/ → /tʃi/, /tʃe/.

What are your views on Japonic kuma, and possible Koreanic cognates, as discussed at Talk:고마ᄂᆞᄅᆞ? Wanderwort / borrowing, or true cognate? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

One problem I feel on that is that bears are not native to Ryukyu islands. So every Ryukyuan kuma for bears may be borrowed word and wouldn't be informative for the protoform. What I am confident on kuma is that word has very small number of dialectal variations, where 獣(しし) (shishi, generic term for "beasts" and their meat) used in Tōhoku region is the almost sole different lineage as far as I've confirmed. At least hides of bears are preservable and can become substitute of currency, even amongst hunter-gatherer culture. The lack of dialectal forms indicates that the goods may have been consumed over a very wide area. Combined with Tungusic word *kuma for seals[1], it seems to be originally a generic word for large fur-bearing animals, or a wanderwort.

I think Koreo-Japonic, which some researchers like Vovin say, never exists, the two language families must have developed similar word orders acquiredly, since between Korean and Japanese is not closer than between Korean and Ainu, in frequency of lexical correspondence and word order (Korean and Ainu share at least two features that Japanese doesn't have, prepositional negative word and conjoined part of speech category of verbs and adjectives) in spite of their geographical position. --荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 13:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)