User talk:Chuterix/Proto-Japonic

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@Kwékwlos, 荒巻モロゾフ, Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, Mellohi!, anyone else interested in Japonic/Ryukyuan linguistics: feel free to review my documentation and leave some feedback here! Chuterix (talk) 00:31, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the Peninsular Japonic section is redundant/unnecessary, that theory has a lot of forced analogies, and Japanese kuma VS Korean kom seems to be just a wanderwort.

Origin of Proto-Ryukyuan *pite-tu (> *pi̥tecu > Okinawan tiːci, "one") is still not described, there must be some older substratum even older than Proto-Japonic, which had made mysterious "o/ə VS e" correspondence in some words seen between Central Old Japanese and some non central Japonic including Ryukyuan and Old Eastern (e.g. teru VS EOJ təru "to shine", nuno VS fossilized form nino "cloth", umi (< *omi) VS Miyako im (< *emi) "sea" (Pellard and Lawrence said that is an innovation, but such phonological change is very unnatural)).

Also what I thought is that reference to the accents is missing.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 03:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Eirikr's comments

Suggestion here -- for the "Combining form", >>show just the 被覆形<< first, and _then_ list an example, or a few examples.

Ex: | 身 (mi, “body, flesh”) || むくろ (mukuro, “corpse”)

 ↓

| 身 (mi, “body, flesh”) ||
むくろ (mukuro, “corpse”)

I think this would more clearly illustrate the relationship between the two forms.

Next,

Don't forget about "o" ↔ "a" ablaut as well.

o / a ablaut

Root	o	a
pVtV	一 (pi1to2, “one”)	二 (puta, “two”)
yV	四 (yo, “four”)	八 (ya, “eight”)
yVmV	黄泉 (yo2mo2, “land of the dead”)	山 (yama, “mountain”)

Note that this seems to manifest in nouns, verbs, and adjectives, such as konomoshii / konomashii, etc.

Next,

Raising of /o/ to /u/ doesn't happen at the end of words — so the word-final /u/ appearing in the Old Japanese rentaikei cannot be from Proto-Japonic /o/.

My response:

See Pellard (2008). If your comment is true, then Eastern Old Japanese would have unexplainable vowel lowering, unlike an explainable (and documented) /o/ raising to /u/ in EOJ (compare EOJ 久牟 (kumu, “cloud”)).

Next,

Considering the Koreanic comparisons to syem, and the whole cluster of Japonic verb roots starting with sim- and all related to ideas of "closing off", this is HIGHLY unlikely to be any kind of compound with *me "water". 

My reponse:

Clearly *sima (“island”) is unrelated to *me (“water”). I was listing the relationship of peninuslar japonic, not the etymology of *mentu (“water”) to *sima. What about the me-n(o)-tu etymology? I also forgot about tsu in 唾 (tsubaki, “spit”).

Next,

Unlikely derivation. Note that the NKD states 「上代は主として肉親に対する愛情を表わし」, so this was originally more about familial love than anything emotional about "inner beauty". There could potentially be a tenuous argument for utu being 内 "inside", in reference to one's inner group → one's family, but that is tenuous — and then the kusi "mysterious" just doesn't fit at all. "insidely mysterious" → "familially dear" is a very wide gap in meaning that is difficult to explain. Also, do we have examples of 被覆形 forming compounds with adjectives?

My reponse:

胸苦しい (munagurushii, “chest painful”) < Pre-Japanese (not Proto-Japonic) *munankurusi (*n is preform of *y (emphatic nominal particle))

Next,

Most -ashii and -oshii adjectives appear to derive from verbs, even a few other -shii adjectives like まぶしい (from 目 + 伏す: "causing one to lower one's eyes").  OJP urupasi is very likely from verb urupu – note that the OJP senses about "wet" are all positive, and note too the other OJP attested meaning, 「恵みを受ける。恩恵をこうむる。」 

Yes, the urupu derivation is more likely.

Next time, please post your comments here. Chuterix (talk) 19:59, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr Chuterix (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)