User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 24

Ho Chi Minh City Cantonese

Just wondering, did you get data for Ho Chih Minh City Cantonese from 越南芒街市粤方言词汇研究? RcAlex36 (talk) 07:40, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Great. I can add the remaining three 方言點 recorded in the paper (lol). RcAlex36 (talk) 15:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:  Done, plus a couple 方言點 in 廣西北海市粵方言研究. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

鍛鍊

Why did you revert? There were concerns that some of my technical fixes might not be stable longer term? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00: The standard formatting for {{CJKV}} is to not put it in a list. Putting it in a list breaks the formatting. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Tibetan dictionary

Is there a good Tibetan dictionary online? Asking this because The Tibetan & Himalayan Library is down, and I need a Tibetan dictionary when editing Sinitic etymology. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:29, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

You won't get that kind of quality unless you resort to a print dictionary (of which there are many excellent ones in English and Chinese), but [1] is pretty good. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 03:52, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Metaknowledge: I believe they've moved the THL dictionaries to here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks a lot! RcAlex36 (talk) 05:43, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Congee in Singaporean Hainanese

To answer your question, if the rice grains are still whole like what you typically see in Hokkien and Teochew porridge, then it's 糜. If the rice grains are mashed up and no longer visible like what you typically see in Cantonese porridge, then it's 粥. That's the distinction. For this term, it's different from the Hainanese in China because in Wenchang itself, 糜 refers to cooked rice, so it did confuse me somewhat. The dog2 (talk) 07:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: That doesn't really answer my question. So would Hainanese congee be like Cantonese style or Hokkien/Teochew style? Or do they have both? I don't know if it's a good idea to classify it based on other groups. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

In don't know about in China because I never ate congee during my trip to Hainan but in Singapore, the style of congee that you find at Hainanese hawker stalls is at some sort of a halfway point between Cantonese and Teochew porridge. See [2] for an example. This style would be called 粥. The dog2 (talk) 08:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I see, thanks! I'm not sure how we should do it best, but I don't think the notes should be describing other groups' styles without describing their own kind of congee. It may be better to have it be based on the actual characteristics of the congee as you had it before. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:13, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I've adjusted it. Please feel free to improve. The dog2 (talk) 08:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Thesaurus:瓦工

I've created Module:zh/data/dial-syn/瓦匠. Does Thesaurus:瓦工 still need to stay? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: We usually keep thesaurus entries. I'd remove all the dialectal terms because they're covered better with {{zh-dial}}. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

海豐方言 and 海豐方言辭典

I was wondering if you have heard of these two books by 羅志海 and have e-copies of them. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I have all of 海豐方言 and the first 100 pages of 海豐方言詞典. I could email them to you if you'd like. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: May I have just 海豐方言? I have the first 100 pages of 海豐方言詞典, but I have no idea why there's only the first 100 pages of it. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:59, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

後字變調 in Teochew

Months ago you talked about 後字變調 in Teochew. There does not seem to be 後字變調 in the Shantou dialect, but 後字變調 is indeed present in Chaozhou, Chenghai and Jieyang (see 廣東閩方言語音研究 p.95-96). The IPA generation system we currently have is based on the Shantou dialect, yet it is also programmed to display 後字變調. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:02, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: If we are to do sub-dialects of Teochew one day (I hope that happens eventually), we should perhaps start with Chaozhou, Shantou, Chenghai and Jieyang. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:09, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup, it's kind of a mess. It's kind of a mixed version that doesn't distinguish dialects. It'll need to be fixed eventually but it's not that easy to do. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:11, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: As a side note, -m and -p are said to be disappearing in Chaozhou, but I guess we will stick to 老派讀音 when sub-dialects get implemented. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:23, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup, let's stick to 老派. "Disappearing" means it's not completely gone, so we should record the more "conservative" pronunciation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: If I'm not wrong, 後字變調 also exists in Hokkien, not just Teochew, at least as spoken in Singapore. However, the module doesn't seem to incorporate it. The dog2 (talk) 19:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Hainanese pronunciation

Just wondering, when will the module be implemented? I think our number of Hainanese entries has grown, so it will certainly be useful to have pronunciations. The dog2 (talk) 19:05, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm not sure. There are still some uncertainties with tone sandhi. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

海南話基本詞彙四種

I can't seem to find it online. May I have a copy of it? Thanks a lot! RcAlex36 (talk) 04:28, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It's just the vocabulary list in 海南省志 人口志 方言志 宗教志. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh... Never mind then. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Philippine Hokkien

@Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser This user, Kamkamkamuti, changed two Philippine Hokkien entries. Perhaps you can take a look at them. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:31, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Thanks for the the heads-up. I've already looked at it. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:00, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Thanks! They made a few more edits, so make sure you take a look at those as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Aunt In Hainanese

OK, I guess this isn't proof, but if you look at the video from The Federation of Hainan Association Malaysia, they do have a segment where they talk about how to address your paternal aunts and uncles in Hainanese. The dog2 (talk) 21:37, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: That'd be proof for Malaysian Hainanese, but not Wenchang. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

That said, most Hainanese in Malaysia trace their ancestry to Wenchang or Qionghai. And the Wenchang and Qionghai dialects are very similar; the Hainanese diverges more when you get to Haikou, and even more when you get to Sanya. So what you will notice is that the Hainanese spoken in Malaysia is quite heavily based on the Wenchang and Qionghai dialects. One interesting observation I have made though is that my Hainanese relatives from Singapore have difficulty understanding the Hainanese in Haikou and Sanya, while those who were actually born and raised in Wenchang can understand the Haikou and Sanya dialects with no problem. The dog2 (talk) 00:30, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Of course, Hainanese in Malaysia/Singapore probably has diverged less from Wenchang/Qionghai Hainanese than say Hokkien has, but there is bound to be differences because the Hainanese in Malaysia/Singapore are surrounded by many other languages, while in Hainan, there's likely influence from Mandarin (and to a lesser extent, Cantonese). There's always a change of language change along the way. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:50, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Islam

Just to clarify, I thought 伊斯蘭教 is the term used in China, while 回教 is used in Malaysia and Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 18:35, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Plenty of people still use 回教 in China, though the more "official" term is 伊斯蘭教. 回教 is definitely used in Taiwan and Hong Kong as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

普通话基础方言基本词汇集 词汇卷

Just so you know, there's a book called 普通话基础方言基本词汇集 词汇卷, divided into three volumes. It contains quite a lot of Mandarin 方言點. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup, I'm not sure if you noticed, but I'm already using parts of it. (It's actually 5 volumes if you include the two volumes with the phonologies.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Don't know if I'm asking for too much, but may I have the three volumes of 詞彙卷? Thanks a lot! RcAlex36 (talk) 06:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I don't have all the pages yet (cuz the system wouldn't let me get all of it yet). Maybe you could get the pages I don't have? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I have 上: 2001-2400, 中: 2909-3029, 下: 3871-4270. Am I just slower than you in requesting? RcAlex36 (talk) 06:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Haha, I think I've just been at it longer. I have 上: 2001-2700, 中: 2909-3658, 下: 3871-4570. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: So you're ahead of me by six days. I don't need it for now then. By the way, I think you can't request too much of a particular book within a month. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup, there's a limit. I think I saw on Zhihu that the limit is something like 80% of the book in 20 days or something. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I think it's lower than 80% in reality. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yeah, it probably depends on the book as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Let's just add the remaining 方言點 some day. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup. We might need to shuffle the order around. I'm not sure if we should go geographically and/or by major classification. Our current order is kind of a mix of both. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Shuffling the order or inserting new 方言點 between old ones is a pain in the a**, to be honest. Can a bot be written to reorder the 方言點 and add newly added ones in existing dialectal synonyms modules? RcAlex36 (talk) 07:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c, I wonder if you could help with this. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I've totally thought about it. I've also put zero effort so far into making my thoughts a reality, but I'll start. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

In progress, but what's this about Sabah? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 10:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Also please mass revert User:350bot's edits because my script is trash and I failed to consider edge cases. I have to monitor it. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 10:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: I don't know Lua, but why is stuff from other entries showing up? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Because my code sucks and retained words from previous pages. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 10:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: There are several locations that should be deprecated and replaced with its successors: Sabah → Sabah-B, Sabah-L; Luchuan → Luchuan-LC, Luchuan-DQ; Doumen → Doumen-T, Doumen-S; Huidong → Huidong-PS, Huidong-DL. If there are synonyms for the deprecated locations, you could just leave the synonyms as comments (and maybe ping me in the comments to deal with them?). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I've checked 40 of the bot's revisions after improving the code and I haven't seen any problems, so I'll let the bot run unsupervised now since there are >1,000 of these. If anything still happens please shout at me violently.

Deprecated locations: [3] —Suzukaze-c (talk) 05:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Great, thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

左轉 and 右轉

I was just wondering, do we have enough data to create dialect tables for these? @RcAlex36 Please weigh in too. The dog2 (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Probably not, except for our native lects. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

閩北區三縣市方言研究

Hi Justin, may I have a copy of 閩北區三縣市方言研究? Thanks a lot! RcAlex36 (talk) 10:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:07, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Wu 方言點

@Justinrleung, Thedarkknightli I've added quite a number of Wu 方言點 from 當代吳語研究. I've also added 舟山 and 義烏 from 舟山方言研究 and 義烏方言研究 respectively. I did not add 金壇西崗鎮 because Wu is no longer spoken there as noted in the book. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:33, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for reordering the 方言點 again, but we can always fix that with 350bot some day, perhaps after those Mandarin 方言點 are also added. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Thanks! I always find it very time consuming to add 方言點, so I really appreciate that you're doing it! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Thedarkknightli: BTW, it looks like all the Shanghai dialects are in a weird order. I think they should really be put together. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: You can reorder them if you want. I was just trying to follow the order given in 當代吳語研究 but I didn't move Shanghai itself. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: Guys, I've reordered them per Wu subgroups. --TheDarkKnightLi ​(STAY HAPPY) 21:37, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Origin of 仔 suffix in Taiwanese Hakka

The paper 客家方言名词后缀 “子”“崽” 的类型及其演变 suggests diminutive suffixes in mainland Hakka lects ultimately derive from either 子 or 崽. Do you have any source for the etymological origin of 仔 suffix in the various Taiwanese Hakka lects? I suspect it is ultimately from 子, but a source is needed. Thanks! RcAlex36 (talk) 14:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: The same article mentions Sixian (represented by Miaoli) and Hailu (represented by Hsinchu), the major dialects in Taiwan, which 庄初升 derives from 子. I think Raoping dialect in Taiwan probably got its suffix from contact with these two dialects (both or either). Dabu dialect doesn't have a diminutive suffix, but a diminutive tone (kind of like Cantonese). Zhao'an dialect has /a/, which seems to be from Hokkien, and /tsu/, which is clearly 子. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Thesaurus:頭向下微動

I've created Module:zh/data/dial-syn/點頭. We might as well just delete Thesaurus:頭向下微動. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:09, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I think we could still keep it, but it should be moved to Thesaurus:點頭 or something. It's kind of weird to have 頭向下微動 as the title since it's really a definition more than anything. What do you think, @Tooironic? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I gave it that name so it would be clear that we are referring to a literal motion of the head, and not its extended meaning of giving consent. However, if you guys think moving it to Thesaurus:點頭 is a good idea, please go ahead. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:39, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I see what you mean, but it's kind of a clunky title. We've already defined it in English in the thesaurus entry, so it should be fine for distinguishing which sense we're referring to. I'll move it then. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:42, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

No worries. Thanks mate. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:16, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

陽入 in Taishanese

I bet you have noticed this problem long ago, but different sources give different tone numbers for 陽入 in Taishanese. Stephen Li and 台山方音字典 gives 32, 广东四邑方言语音特点 and 台山县志 give 21, and 广东四邑方言语法研究 gives 2 but notes there is another 陽入 tone with tone number 21 that is commonly used with nouns and likely produced by morphological tone change. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Let's stick with Stephen Li and Deng Jun (台山方音字典) since they're native speakers of Taishanese (or a similar dialect). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

文明棍

Hiya. Would you mind taking a look at this entry when you get a chance? I can't reconcile the lua error. Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: It seems like you've inputted the wrong character (U+0261 instead of the normal U+0067). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Weird. Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: No problem :D — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:06, 1 September 2020 (UTC)