User talk:Saltmarsh/Archive 10

Archive for 2020

Help needed

Dear Saltmarsh, many wishes for the coming 2020. I see that our el-wikt sysop Sarri.greek is also here ! I am writing to you for help, since I see that you are the original author of Template:el-nN-μα-ματα-2b:

I am working in el-wikt with the help of FocalPointBot (or otherwise called Talos) in creating declension forms (among other things).

The simple stuff (without moving accents to another syllable), I can do it (example αίθουσα, αίθουσας, αίθουσες). I would like, however, a tool that will allow me to move accents to another syllable, as done by Template:el-nN-μα-ματα-2b. I tried to copy it to User:FocalPoint/templ-ma and leave only active the |3={{{1}}}ματος. However, it is not that simple as I thought.

My request: I would appreciate if (without spending too much time) you could modify User:FocalPoint/templ-ma so that I could produce a test page like:

(Dead links removed — Saltmarsh.)

which I would like it to produce ..:
ακροάματος
αλαργέματος
αλατίσματος
αλαφρώματος
αλείμματος

..if the switch is set to |3={{{1}}}ματος. I will then take this list to create the relevant entries.

Is this doable? Are you the right person to ask?

Thank you for your support. --FocalPoint (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Καλή χρονιά @FocalPoint! Always willing to help — but to understand exactly what you are trying to do. If all that you want to do is create a declension table, doesn't {{el-nN-μα-ματα-3b}} achieve this? BUT you mention your bot and talk of "creating the relevant entries". Are you trying to create new pages for each inflected form. — Saltmarsh. 07:11, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Αντεύχομαι Saltmarsh. I have already created with the bot new pages for several inflected forms (the ones I could easily produce) and I want to create more. I understand that it seems that I asked for a declension table (which we already have), but I did not exactly ask that: I am asking for a template which will give only one πτώση at a time, with input from the "|" parameter. For example, above, only the genitive singular. In this way, if I input 2000 words in -μα, I will only get 2000 words in their genitive singular form, no formatting, no tables, nothing else. --FocalPoint (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Ahh. now I see why you asked this question, see above, where I displayed the formula. --FocalPoint (talk) 07:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

So... if would like to have this:

{{User:FocalPoint/templ-ma|ακρόαμα}} --> ακροάματος

--FocalPoint (talk) 07:50, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Our common friend Sarri.greek spoke to me at her discussion page in el-wikt and I realized that the Template:el-nN-μα-ματα-2b is getting manual feed in order to work, so, it cannot help. The template we have in el-wikt , el:Module:κλίση/el/ουσιαστικό works automatically (no other input than the pagename needed), so I will try to find a solution from there. Many thanks and may 2020 bring all what you want. --FocalPoint (talk) 08:12, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@FocalPoint I am sorry but I'm not going to be much use. Our en.decl.templates are coming on for 10 years old, they serve their purpose, but there are neater waays of achieving this - as you are attempting. In my time I've programmed in Fortran, BASIC and Pascal - but when modules came along (is it Python) my initial attempts failed, so I thought I could be more productive doing something else, I realised the fatal attraction of just polishing that code a bit more - I shall follow you progress with interest.

2020 is going to bring me everything I don't want! Goodbye Europe, hello US/China/etc - for all its faults (as Greece knows onluy too well) the EU was a step in the right direction. With some friend in a pub last night we decided that we wouldn't discuss politics - the resolution didn't last long !! — Saltmarsh. 09:52, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• User:Sarri.greek has done it! Look: here
• Fortran, BASIC and Pascal ! I suppose we have common relatives, showing up in Siberia with the melting permafrost
• You will be always welcome to emigrate in Greece :) as long you are prepared for your beer to be served cold, rather than warm [1]

--FocalPoint (talk) 10:17, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Dearest Salt! Happy New Year to all of you! I hope you are having a very nice time. My love to F.
PS. I am away from home at the moment. Coming back soon. 07:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thank you, Xmas was quiet, but the grandkids are coming for the weekend so a noisy time is approaching. As regards everything else in England see my comments to FP above. (I am remembering that I said we should address {{el-verb}} in the near future.) — Saltmarsh. 09:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Salt! be optimistic and happy! England is not going to be completely outside Europe. Ever. Just like HenryVIII took it away from Rome, it did not take it away from the 'club' of european functions. Englishness has been known to be very practical, and it wassss a change, to see 'idealistic nationalism' take over: but only by a liiitle bit. I wouldn't worry too much. -trying to console you... but I do believe it is not going to be fatal- sarri.greek (talk) 10:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I hope your trip away was happy, and well done with your work on modules! I'll be in touch in a week or so. — Saltmarsh. 06:02, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

μύρρο

Saltmarsh! Hello, I cannot find a word «το μύρρο». There is the ancient-only «η μύρρα» (fem.) which is synonym to «η σμύρνα».
«το μύρο/μύρον» = sweet oil, and kind of aromatic perfume/essence and «η σμύρνα» =myrrh. They are different things. Cognate, far back to a PIE root, but different. sarri.greek (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Salt, please, what dictionary gives μύρρο? I have looked up 6 dictionaries and cannot find it. sarri.greek (talk) 11:35, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Γεια σου - Βικι gives it as an alternative spelling, our two forms should have been linked - now rectified. Arrivederci Roma! On Friday black ties will be worn!! — Saltmarsh. 11:40, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

O! do not be sad (I am sad too, I confess). But I belieeeeve that it will change in the following years, I am sure. Ιt is not arrivederci for too long. There will be little 'correcting' steps back, one by one.

What is Βικι? Greek wikipedia? I was just writing a note to them. There is NO neuter μύρρο with 2 ρρ. And they should write 'σμύρνα' as head of article. sarri.greek (talk) 11:49, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek We might not like it, but dictionaries follow the language as she is spoken (rather than the other way round). Google gives 12.000+ μύρρο, many of them modern. If people start misspelling eventually we follow, else the English would all be speaking as we do, but our doctionaries would only contain Anglo Saxon (or even PIE :). — Saltmarsh. 11:59, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Ι see, I get 2.860 but it is a neuter misconstruction of the ancient feminine. It should be noted, then, that it is a frequent misonstruction. It is probably the fault of Βικιπαίδεια, which was probably copied again and again by people. sarri.greek (talk) 12:05, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

2nd Conjugation

Dear Salt. Taking a break from 1st conjugation to check 2nd.Conjugation -άω/ώ verbs which I have neglected completely. I have a few questions about 2ndConjug.Class1. I'm afraid, too many questions.

• 1) The HeadWordLine: Is it ok like γελάω.8Feb & γελώ.8Feb? Ι used |head= to give the fixed, standard way they are presented.
• 1b) And we add both of the at their Category. e.g. Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'αγαπάω' Ο! it is Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'αγαπάω-αγαπώ'. The simple name is perhaps better? Anyway: Do we add BOTH or just ONE verb over there? I propose that we always add the -άω only. Otherwise the number of verbs will be doubled!
• 1c) The HWL of the passive form: Here both actives should be presented .e.g γελιέμαι.8Feb. I tried this at {{el-verb}}

These very very repetitive explanations, at 2ndConjugation Class1:

• 2) the explanation of the nuance of the two variant endings is given at Alternative forms. Are they interchangeable or not: My notes on the precedence of -άω.
• 2b) Do you agree on adding the conjugation at the -άω forms (like Iordanidou does?). Unless, ofcourse the -ώ ending takes precedence (very few exceptions).
• 3) I am troubled by the repetitiveness of the Etymology of -άω explanation: e.g.

  «With ending -άω to γελώ (geló) in the pattern of 3rd person -άει. From {inh|el|grc|γελῶ}, contracted form of γελάω (geláō).»

  This would be repeated in some hundreds of verbs. Does it make sense? Does it need rephrasing? Are the linguistic terms ok? It is NOT contracted/uncontracted like the ancient verbs. It is a re... re... redoing of the ending. Could we show it to friends and readers before I make the mistake of copying it here and there? Perhaps to Mahagaja who has been so helpful with the connection of ancient/modern verbs?

Thank you!
PS May I add p-past and ppp at el-verb? :) As I go? I promise I will not do very long headwordlines!! sarri.greek (talk) 13:24, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Good morning @Sarri.greek!

* 1/ That seems to work very well.

* 1a/ I think both forms -άω & -ώ should be catalogued together (in '…αγαπάω'), I don't think the doubling matters - after all there are two forms.

* 1c/ That looks good !

* 2/ Your notes are clear/good - was it your intention to write them up in Appendix:Greek verbs? I wish I had come to Greek when I was younger - very little of this sticks in my head now.

* 2b/ This looks the best way of doing things.

* 3/ repeatedness: I'm not really sure what concverns you, BUT there is no reason why a template (with suitable parameters) cannot be used for repeated text - anywhere!.

— Saltmarsh. 06:30, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you boss. I've done -ω for 1st conjug. and I will do -ώ & -άω.Modern so that the etymology will not be repeated. But i had to do some -ω nouns en route (I hope i did not upset too much the templates). After doing some verbs, I will add a small note at the Appendix (very few words). sarri.greek (talk) 08:10, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Template:el-verb

Full forms for Template:el-verb (+passive past and +ppp) I tried here a simple version +p.past+ppp. I have this obsession with full forms of the verb, being influenced by your super panoramic tables. I promise never to make too many forms and never to wrap the HWL!!! If ppp is going to be added, i promise to create their pages too.
Speaking of ppp, could we have a |type=ppp giving Category:Greek passive perfect participles at Template:el-part as well? -- Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:11, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek that looks excellent, you hardly need my imprimatur! and a ppp category seems essential. Thank you so much for doing the work. — Saltmarsh. 05:30, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

O! Thank you, thank you. I'll start work tomorrow! Kαλή εβδομάδα ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 23:00, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thank you so much for ploughing through those participles! — Saltmarsh. 07:35, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Passive perfects in active tables

I was looking active-only verbs like καθίζω. The passive participle is very frequent. And there is a passive perfect tense of the 2nd type: (είμαι, είσαι.... -μένος) which is quite common.
The space in that section is ample. I did a little test only for the first row

• Template:el-conjug-table-act splitting the colspan. I copied from Template:el-conjug-table. The passive perfect would go to the second line of each row
• Template:el-conjug-1st-act adding the commands.

How do you feel about it? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 17:53, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek - It sounds OK - I suggest that you try it out, you can always revert it if you dont like the result. — Saltmarsh. 06:21, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, Hello! I have done it at Template:el-conjug-table-act (with no borders between the two, since passive voice does not exist in this table) and updated all the -act Templates. Be safe! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 09:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Isolated

Dear Salt! this is my 5th day indoors. How are you doing? I hope you are all OK!
Trying to fix some things at el.wikt, and I am coming bach soon. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 21:05, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

We had a pub lunch yesterday, but no more until - well for some weeks at least. There is certainly lots to do in el.wikt. — Saltmarsh. 06:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello

Hello boss! I hope you keeping safe. I am thinking of you, your family. Knowing that it is difficulat not to see them... For me the quarantine is easier. My love to F. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:31, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Sarri.greek - I've been meaning to email you and will tomorrow! — Saltmarsh. 19:35, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Georgakas

The excellent work of Georgakas, ended somewhere in the middle of letter β. Online, we have only Letter A. He incorporates many many forms which are outside Strandard Modern Greek: idiomatic, demotic, from literature, obsolete, dated etc. Practically, everything that has been written. Some of these forms are extremely rare.

About *-ένω verb endings, a highly irregular, dated and deprecated spelling of -αίνω. Like ανοστένω, mentioned at

• ανοσταίνω - Georgakas, Demetrius J. A Modern Greek-English Dictionary, Letter 'A' at the "Centre for the Greek Language"

I have not studied the subject, it is too complicated. In Standard Koine, they are NEVER written this way.
Perhaps it would be a good idea, for rare spellings or rare words, to add the source {{R:Georgakas}}, especially when the word does not appear at {{R:DSMG}} or {{R:Babiniotis 2002}}. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:24, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

PS Also see αποσταίνω. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Happy summer

Happy summer boss!! I am -sort of- away too, I am a little sick and have various examinations at hospital but they cannot find anything. I loved your καφενόβιος!! It is an adjective like πλούσιος but without degrees {{el-decl-adj|dec=ος-α-ο|stem=καφενόβι|nopio-1}}. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Well - what can I say, except to say how sorry I am to hear that you're still not well. You have our best wishes.

You mention πλούσιος - I have added καφενοβίων to its lemma.
ΥΓ. Searching leads you down strange lanes: I found this:

«Για να κοιμόμαστε λίγο παραπάνω». • Γι’ αυτό «συνέλαβε» ο Γαβρόγλου την «ιδέα» να αρχίζουν τα σχολεία μία ώρα αργότερα – στις 9. • Ποιος άλλος από μια κυβέρνηση–καφενείο εκ καφενοβίων απαρτιζόμενη και καφενειακώς λειτουργούσα θα συνελάμβανε ποτέ μια τέτοια «ιδέα». • Η απορία είναι τι άραγε φοβήθηκαν και μετέθεσαν για του χρόνου τον μπουναμά «μια ώρα ύπνος παραπάνω».

and then - Who is Γαβρόγλου? - Oh - He wants to do away with Latin as well! What is the world coming to ?

Anyway - breakfast is calling - I will look at your next message later — περαστικά — Saltmarsh. 07:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Haaa!!! @Saltmarsh. Nice example. Here they used the 'καφενοβίων' in an ironic sequence of katharevousa forms to mock the socialist ex-minister of cutlure, who wanted to do away with Latin as exams-for-Univesity (not the lesson). His argument was, also, that everyone got an A+. Normally, it is 'καφενόβιων', a very colloquial word. My health problem is not dangerous, thank you thank you for your concern ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I really should read things to the end! I was thinking Γαβρόγλου was ND and that the news was recent (the quote was from Kathimerini) and read somewhere else that Sociology was to replace Latin - hardly moves of a conservative govt. So I now realise my error - he was Syriza and it all made sense. — Saltmarsh. 07:26, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Naming verb templates

Hello boss! I hope you all are ok, the children too! (starting school, I guess).
@Saltmarsh, As I procede -slowly I'm afraid to admit- with new verb types, I add more templates to substitute the old ones. Because of the combined active+passive format, the variety is growing.
I have a problem with naming 2nd-A (2nd conjugation Class A) as seen in Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates (new). At the moment they are named ...άω‑ώ...etc. They come in two patterns

• 1) 2nd-A1 = -άω/ώ, passive -ιέμαι. Like [Template:el-conjug-2nd-A-άω-ώ]
• 2) 2nd-A2 = -ώ, passive -ώμαι. Like [Template:el-conjug-2nd-A-ώ]

Up to now, all was going well with their varieties _...-act, ...-passive, etc). But now, I have to make combinations of A1 and A2 with various active-passive sequences E.g.

• τιμάω/τιμώ (A1) - passive -ιέμαι (A1) & -ώμαι (A2) A template for it could be Template:el-conjug-2nd-A1-A1A2
  These are Jordaniou 58+59.61 verbs. There are endless combinations: 58+61, 58.60+61 and so on. The anarchic verbs!

Then, we assume that Template:el-conjug-2nd-A-άω-ώ could be called   Template:el-conjug-2nd-A1

Similar to Template:el-conjug-2nd-B (here, the passive is not mentioned: it is implied that it is the same)

or, if passive were marked too: Template:el-conjug-2nd-A1-A1 and Template:el-conjug-2nd-B-B

After lots of trials, I find this last full expression (active-passive) helpufl. It would bring some uniformity. I could take care of any changes -the linked verbs are not so many yet-. What are your thoughts? Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 20:00, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Well Maestro - @Sarri.greek - I have steered clear of verb conjugation since you became involved. You've done so much which would is irreplaceable, thank you, but I don't think that there is anything constructive that I can add. (I should also say that even if you hadn't become involved with those templates I would have great difficulty in "picking up the reins" (colloquial: taking over a task) after all this time. So please - do what you will! — Saltmarsh. 10:36, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Very kind of you to say all this, @Saltmarsh, but I have been learning becasue of your templates. The active+passive presentation, which no one attempted, was your idea. I LOVE that you designed it! You would have done it perfectly well by yourself, following Jord. That is basically what I do too. PLUS: Babin. has too many more formal forms, which have to be mentioned. This is my little extra contribution. Only.. it takes too long. In the meantime, I see your excellent tables at the Appendix: a παρακαταθήκη for the future. Great job.

Now about the names of the Templates: I am asking you again, because perhaps almost every old name of 2nd conjug will change. I know, that an administrator does not like this... What about the old ones? Delete? we could have a redirect and put them at the Redundant Category. If you wish, you may delete them whenever you decide. Please keep an eye on the changes. Agreed? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:39, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek The names themselves need to be yours as they need to mean something to someone familiar with Greek verbs, I enjoyed thinking about how the verb form changes and accomodating the template to reflect the change, but with never a thought to their meaning.

As regards the transfer process - I don't think that I've ever redirected a template, on the few occasions when I've needed to I have created the new one and then edited each entry using it. I've never used a bot and never requested someone else to run one for me. I will certainly help make any necessary manual changes (a tedious jon :) ) when the time comes.

Does this help? — Saltmarsh. 18:31, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes @Saltmarsh, no need for redirects (My havbit: at el.wikt, people tend to use the old Templates all the time, that is why we still have redirects for hundreds of them). Here, there is no problem: I will correct all the verbs, and put the old Tempalte at Cat.Redundant. Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 18:41, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek You must tell me if you need any help, especially if it's a purely mechanical process requiring little thought!! And I can certainly delete the redundant ones when needed. — Saltmarsh. 18:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, @Saltmarsh, but it is ok, they are not many, and it is a good opportunity to check them again. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:00, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Parameter head at verbs

@Saltmarsh, thank you for advising here on the issue of |head used for 2nd conjugation verbs -άω/ώ. What at about the trial at Template:el-verb for |pres2 instead? tested at αγαπάω. I thought that there is always the danger, every some months or years, that a bot would erase |head=. And there will be many more verbs than 62 verbs ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Yes, but I don't think the objection is technical — ie by using |head — but to the double "αγαπάω/αγαπώ" in the hwl. Since new version of {{el-verb}} produces the same effect, I think that it needlessly complicates the template and would best be reversed. — Saltmarsh. 05:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, I understand what you are saying @Saltmarsh. But bots will not be looking for |pres in Greek section. Why would they? They will be looking for |head everywhere :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I shall get into trouble one day for not reading things properly/completely! In this case I had completely missed the fact that it was a bot that objected. — Saltmarsh. 05:38, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, a bot or an editor. Why would an editor look around for |pres2 ?? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek There I go again - I assumed that the bot was objecting to the use of |head in this fashion. — Saltmarsh. 05:41, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

We sent you an e-mail

Hello Saltmarsh/Archive 10,

Really sorry for the inconvenience. This is a gentle note to request that you check your email. We sent you a message titled "The Community Insights survey is coming!". If you have questions, email surveys@wikimedia.org.

You can see my explanation here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

My participle mess

@Saltmarsh, I tried (for band new πληγείς) to make Template:el-decl-adj-είς-είσα-έν. All was going well, until i had this brilliant idea to make it produce Category:Greek participles in declension είς-είσα-έν since the template is for participles only. So I added

• |part=1 at Template:el-decl-adj-είς-είσα-έν which comes from Template:el-decl-adj-table
• Ι added {{#if:{{{part|}}}|{{{part|}}}}} at Template:el-decl-adj-table
• Then, I added the same at Template:el-decl-adj-positive. Nothing
• Then, i noticed that Category comes from Template:el-decl-adj, so I added, if part, give Category:Greek participles in declension {{{dec|}}}]]

But πληγείς, is not affected. Unless I write there: |part=1. I cannot see how the templates are interconected. Boss, I am so sorry, I was carried away. It does not matter, because all participles are adjectives too. (eg all the -ων 'adjectives' are participles). So, you could revert all, or redo Template:el-decl-adj-είς-είσα-έν ... Thhhank you (I feel like Mickey Mouse in Fantasia) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 23:20, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Καλό μήνα @Sarri.greek!

(It took me quite a while to get a "neat" way of asking {{el-decl-adj}} to form the right table by callng other templates - just to make life easier for the editor. Unfortunately it makes the later understanding of how they work together more difficult.)

In more general terms (rather than just "είς-είσα-έν" forms, which we can deal with later) would you like "ος-η-ο" participles added to Category:Greek participles in declension ος-η-ο and not Category:Greek adjectives in declension ος-η-ο? — Saltmarsh. 05:44, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Καλό μήνα to all of you @Saltmarsh. The whole notion of marking the word 'participle' for declensions is not truly necessary, because participles ARE adjectives too. It was more like an execise. So, ... no problem. We can revert back to where we are.

It is true, that participles are too few at the moment, so, a change could be done now, before they become too many. All -μένος participles are already statistically recorded at Category:Greek passive perfect participles, etc. The decl.template used, is a matter for the editors, not readers. One diplomatic solution would be to name the cats: Category:Greek declension in ος-η-ο. :) :) it implies 3 genders. Who has 3 genders? adjectives and participles.

PS It terrifies me that I have to categorize them at el.wikt: they are ~6.700. hhhh I'll spend a year doing them. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek We could get the template which presently allocates them to Category:Greek adjectives in declension ος-η-ο to place them in Category:Greek adjectives and participles in declension ος-η-ο and then delete the old cat when they have been migrated by the system? — easy peasy — Saltmarsh. 07:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, it would create inconsistency: some templates are only for adj, some are for part+adj, and some are for participles only (the -είς, and the -ων, -ών). We can just make a note for the editors at a Category:Greek participle inflection-table templates with some insturctions. The templates used for participle declensions are... and include them there. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I suppose it depends what you understand by "and". I would expect a category of "nouns and verbs" to contain a mixture of each, NOT just terms which could act as both a noun and a verb. — Saltmarsh. 07:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh forget the whole thing. Sorry to bother you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:23, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Sarri.greek No bother, really! It's good to talk!! — Saltmarsh. 07:27, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Template naming again

O! @Saltmarsh Help, help!
_1.Naming templates and finding the best example-word is so difficult: because some of the good words have exceptions and notes, so, I cannot use them. I have problem with naming a reversed variant: from A1 -άω/-ώ (αγαπάω/αγαπώ) to a reversed more frequent Α1 version -ώ/άω (like ερευνώ/ερευνάω, where the -ώ variant is indeed more common. 2nd-A1r ? 2nd A1b? I have just made Template:el-conjug-2nd-A1-A2 but i must revert the sequence of A1 to A1rrrrr. Help!
_2. I started renaming. These are done, all verbs checked. They can be deleted, whenever you wish.

• [Template:el-conjug-2nd-A-'περνάω'] is now Template:el-conjug-2nd-A1-'περνάω'
• [Template:el-conjug-2nd-A-'περνάω'-act] is now Template:el-conjug-2nd-A1-'περνάω'-act

Thank you, boss!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 16:14, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek done - with pleasure — Saltmarsh. 19:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Apologising

Good morning @Saltmarsh, semi-lockdown again in Athens. I apologise for my absense from en.wikt these days: I have to correct some 2,000 bot edits at el.wikt (....) and I will be back, I promise. But, I am around, if you need anything. Give my regards to F. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 04:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I am sorry to hear that you have all that unwanted work, is there anything I could do to help? Here in Essex we are in the same restrictions (I imagine) as Athens — I hope that you politicians fill you with more confidence than ours. — Saltmarsh. 05:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh. politicians not so much, doctors yes. There has been a problem with teenagers getting together in squares at night. The number of younger people getting sick has got out of hand. I am not going out at all without reason. Thank you for worrying about my el.wikt.work! There are only 4 truly active editors, but noone does reviews of Categories etc. The old, good, main editors are gone. Since 2016, the amount of unpatrolled edits is close to infinite.... I need to fix, at least the worst of them. Thnak you for teaching me all about such things! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:17, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

έρπης

You removed the modern Greek declension variants in the noun έρπης. The formal genitive for example would normally be του έρπητος, yet του έρπητα is shown. And instead of τον έρπη it has ??τον έρπης??. Isn't there a way to add the modern forms του έρπη and τον έρπη? They are regularly used as you can see from a simple google search and resources like lexigram also include them. Edit: Seeing from your other edits on my contributions you edited it because of the wrong formatting. But why is formatting more important than a completely wrong form like "τον έρπης" being included in the declension table? — This unsigned comment was added by Poursa0 (talk • contribs) at November 10.

1) @Poursa0, Sarri.greek First of all thank you for your edits! but please remember to sign your messages :)

2) With reference to formatting - it not just a nicety, each field in the template forms a link in the table so "έρπητα / έρπη" formed ONE link to TWO words, which will not work. It can only be done by adding a footnote as I did with πέλεκυς.

3) I took the genitive singular "έρπητα" from Μπαμπινιώτης, although my little pocket dictionary has "έρπητος". Have some of the forms been derived from "έπητας"?

But OK the accusative should be "έρπη" sorry - my main problem was with the template's field contents - only one form per field.

And again thank you, — Saltmarsh. 15:47, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you @Saltmarsh. Thank you @Poursa0 for you observations, because sometimes there are mistakes εκ παραδρομής (el) (ek paradromís). I do not know your occupation, but you seem to know a lot about greek linguistics, so your help is appreciated. One difficult decision about these archaeo‑clits is whether to split or not to split the two tables: the έρπης with the formal types and the έρπητας with the modern endings. Unfortunately I cannot visit lexigram because it needs money, subscription. I believe they present together all forms occuring in any style. Nevertheless, it should be clear that the 2 sequences are: έρπης-έρπητος-έρπη and έρπητας-έρπητα-έρπητα, or, at least by adding some notes. Isn't that right?

Poursa, the technical part of multiforms is very difficult, and Saltmarsh has done a terrific job over the years, completely alone! Amazing! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 16:20, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, Sarri.greek First of all sorry for forgetting to sign my edit here!

I suspect the actual usage is much more complicated than that, I hope reading Fliatouras' new book on the learned register on modern Greek can help me separate these usages apart better but here is my understanding currently. Across the various registers of Greek there is a variety of declensions for nouns like this.

1)The most colloquial variant would have the genitive and accusative be the same as ο έρπης - του έρπη - τον έρπη with a plural in οι έρπηδες - των έρπηδων etc.

2)Considering the medical usage of this term it is unlikely for the -ηδες ending to appear, so the plural is more often than not οι έρπητες - των ερπήτων(this genitive feels a bit clumsy to me).

3)Apart from that you also have a higher register form ο έρπης - του έρπητος - τον έρπητα(basically as shown on the ancient greek declension table), which is also likely to be found in medical documents.

4)As a regular evolution of the ancient Greek word έρπης you'd also expect to get ο έρπητας - του έρπητα - τον έρπητα which mirrors the first colloquial variant in being colloquial and fusing the genitive and accusative. Things obviously may be even more complicated since people's usages of such declensions can even be fused in other weird ways I can't think of.

Now when it comes to the frequencies/formality levels I mentioned above, you can google each term on its own on Google and see how many results pop up to get a rough view.

So after thinking about this a bit better I can't blame anyone for being confused over this to be honest. Poursa0 (talk) 17:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@Poursa0, Sarri.greek Thank you both — lest I show off my ignorance further please one or both of you finish off έρπητας (inflections from Βικιλεξικό) and έρπης. — Saltmarsh. 18:58, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Archive for 2021

ακροβάτησα

Hello. Can you explain why you put the heading as ====Misconstruction====? Pious Eterino (talk) 15:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pious Eterino: Thanks for noticing, but it weren't me guv! Now corrected — Saltmarsh. 15:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Happy 2021 with verbs

Happy (happier) 2021, @Saltmarsh! Yesterday, it snowed very lightly, and it is very cold, after a long period of 20 Celius! 'Anarchic weather' and 'anarchic' verbs. Following naming-verb-discussion of last year: I have renamed templates with A to A1 and A2 instead of A‑άω‑ώ and A‑ώ. I have placed them at Category:Greek verb redundant inflection-table templates. (I have updated all links and moved the documentation pages and talk pages.) You may delete them whenever you wish: they are the ones starting with el‑conjug....
I confess, that I have not anticipated the difficulty of categorizing verbs. Unfortunately, i have to improvise a lot, sometimes forgetting that a category already exists, sometimes regretting the name of the category. I am sorry for the inconvenience.
Now, I need to substitute old conjugations from Category:Greek verbs with an inflection table. Then, I will review the whole picture and add some more crucial categories. Thank you. My love to F. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:11, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Happier? Yes, fingers crossed. — It is good to get all the categorisation right, trouble is that language doesn't always behave in logical ways (perhaps its easier in Esperanto). — Lifes very depressing at the moment (although F's friend (married a Greek) in Saloniki says they've just started easing up on the restrictions). With very best wishes — Saltmarsh. 06:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC).

Greek at aspirate

Hi. Could you make sure the Greek is correct at aspirate - a scan is found at b.g.c — This unsigned comment was added by Forever in your debt (talk • contribs) at 22:17, 5 February 2021‎.

@Forever in your debt — I sorry, my knowledge of Ancient Greek is extremely limited — I am unable to help you with this. — Saltmarsh. 06:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I am back

Dear @Saltmarsh, our telecommuniations company has cut off internet, phone for more than a week at our area. We were told they were 'upgrading'. I was completely isolated (my mobile is erratic too). I am glad to be back! And I have enjoyed your new additions! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:31, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you @Sarri.greek Our telecoms have got by untouched (so far) but the mail service has been very flaky - having seen TV shots of sorting offices with staff on top of each other I am not surprised. Cheers — Saltmarsh. 09:04, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps you may delete

Hello @Saltmarsh! Perhaps you may delete όξου which is not wrong (it is a written out pronunciaton of όξω, a bit idiomatic and emphatically colloquial), but I think the creator intended it as a hoax. Because it does exist, I did not mark it with {delete} - I do not know how you could handle this. Perhaps a redirect to όξω which I created precisely for this reason. Or we can recreated it? The creator's name is also a hoax and pun. Porto-χάλι / Orangepitful. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Good morning @Sarri.greek — a lovely sunny day here and we've had some rain, we only had about 1mm in April! Looking at όξου finding quite a few occurences on Google I wondered if it was a mistaken genitive for όξος = vinegar or οξύ = acid? (or is there a place/river Όξος - I found του "Όξου"). If you can't think of a rationale, I'll delete. — Saltmarsh. 05:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh ὄξος (masculine) > ὀξίδιον (neuter) > ξίδι (neuter) vinegard. el.wikt has el:όξος as dated, very dated indeed. OKkk Just a genitive of όξος is a genius solution!!! Great.

I would write « genitive singular of όξος, see ὄξος »

(The river Oxus or Greek Ὦξος at w:Amu Darya is different) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, someone has added a lot of Category:Kaliarda, and thankfully, The Ice Mage has notified here. I updated the headword line to most, but some, I have marked with {delete} because I do not have the dictionary {{R:Petropoulos 1993}} (it is a very well known dictionary by the way). I cannot guess with the accents or the forms are for such a special argot.
Also, could you delete απείθαχος, which was a typo. Thanks! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Saltmarsh! for the adj. ακάτιος, fem is ακάτια, you may delete ακάτιη & ακάτιης. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:06, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek You deserve our continuing thanks for keeping an eye on things here, together with your other work especially that on Bικι — so Ευχαριστούμε! By the by, you don't need to "ping" people on their own talk pages, it happens automatically. (People need to "ping" you on yours since they are "redirected"). — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:21, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

ρ missing

Hello @Saltmarsh, I follow your nice work! the αποκλήωση is αποκλήρωση (also the decl.forms). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Εθχαριστώ πολύ @Sarri.greek, I think when we first "met" I said that I needed keeping an eye on! But I scarcely imagined that you would still be doing it. A BIG thankyou!! — Saltmarsh. 05:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Verb templates ok

Dear Salt! I hope you are all ok (here, semi-quarantined again with that Omicron, waiting for vaccine#3). Have a happy and safe holiday season.
Extraordinary work at your Appendix:Greek verbs/Α1, ...
Updating you:

• finished (finally) extra templates: Template:el-conjug-2nd-C for -άμαι passives Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'κοιμάμαι' and the unique λυπώ (Template:el-conjug-2nd-'λυπώ')
• so, the Category:Greek verbs with an inflection table is now empty.
• now, all the old templates at Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates are cleaned up (they link only to each other)
  • Please tell me, if you wish all the Templates which are now at the (new) Category should be moved, after the removal of the old Templates.

Planning my new job for 2022: reviewing what is already done, fix headword lines of verbs, and adding conjugations from Category:Requests for inflections in Greek verb entries.
My love and best wishes! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 03:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC) User:Sarri.greek in edit summary

• @Sarri.greek And you should be commended for your work on the verb inflection tables. The verb appendix seems never ending, however it is ¾ done and although all the forms shown are sourced I am now quite good at forecasting what they might be and spotting typos, hopefully (nearly) all of them. However my memory of all the other infections has gone - so I have to steer clear of your wonderful work there! Please do organise them in whichever way you wish - I'll be happy to deal with any deletions and help with moving pages.
• English has many nouns which are both countable and uncountable, "behaviour" for one and chemists use "hydrogen" (gas) and hydrogens (methane had four hydrogens, meaning four hydrogen atoms). Mbambi has many nounts labelled as uncountable although many plural forms can be found. I see that Bikipedia now labels "el:υδρογόνο" almost similarly. It is in my mind to look at {{el-noun}} - what do you think?
• On other matters, I'm sorry that you are still waiting for vaccine#3 we had ours at the end of October, my daughter who is 47 had her's a couple of days ago. Worldwide distribution has been so inequittable and shortsighted. We restrict ourselves to family and a very few close friends, although we have booked a pantomine (did you ever see one?) just after christmas when the grandkids will be with us. We will have many reservations about going under the current circumstances - and theatres may well be closed.

And naturally - our love and best wishes, John — Saltmarsh^🢃 12:18, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, your work on verbs is amazing. As review goes on, of each verb I shall try to find to very rare ones (which I have never seen before). For the moment, I need to go through some very common ones.
About plurals of nouns. The Babiniotis Dictionary marks (repeatedly) χωρ.πληθ. (without plural) whichever word seems nonsensical in the plural. Not so. It CAN be said, in certain context. So are the names of people (they are not unique). Grammatically, there is no restriction in forming silly senses. In greek, there is no reason to assume that an uncountable noun has no plural. Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Bu do you think this dual nature should be reflected in the headword line? As it is with English words. And should Wikt's "Θεοδωράκης" be shown as it is in Biki "el:Θεοδωράκης"? — Saltmarsh^🢃 13:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh by dual nature you mean...? The existance of both numbers, I presume. No, I do not think an explanation is needed as a title at decl.tables. There could be a note: Usually in the singular. Names of people do not need it. There are many people called Marias and Helenes. Nothing peculiar about the plural of names or sunames.

Thε Θεοδωράκης is a surname (or diminutive name), and surnames sometimes have special declensions. This one is like μανάβης (grocer).

At the appendix.el:Παράρτημα:Ουσιαστικά_(νέα_ελληνικά)#Αριθμός we explain that grammatically, it is possible to have plurals, (some quotations there with lots of surnames). And we make a distinction between words that are usually in the plural or usually in the singular (but the other number may exist grammatically), and the strict singularia or pluralia tantum like Χριστούγεννα. There is NO *Χριστούγεννο, it is unutterable.

If you wish to change some decl., there is no problem adding the number missing, as Triantaf.Dictionary marks (not Bab). And of course, I can check more dictionaries if needed. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:20, 22 December 2021 (UTC)