User talk:Wikitiki89/2012

𐤉𐤓𐤅𐤔𐤋𐤉𐤌

Is the coin actually being displayed on the left side on your screen? It isn't on mine... --Yair rand (talk) 03:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No, it was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out! --WikiTiki89 (talk) 05:29, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

rare

What're your criteria? DCDuring TALK 16:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone use dices. Also I did a google book search for "a dice" "two dices" and for "a dice" "two dice". The first returned 38 or something results, the second over 2000. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 16:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

What you've heard is just suggestive and motivating. If those percentages (~2%) are the threshold level, we have a lot of entries and senses to mark. I usually limit the rare tag to the barely attestable. We lack a tag to indicate lower frequency. Sometimes I insert frequency data from COCA and BNC, conveniently available to use through the BYU website. I recommend it as one of the most useful resources for checking on contemporary usage. DCDuring TALK 17:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

genderfuck from clusterfuck?

Do you have any evidence for this? [1] It just doesn't seem likely to me. Equinox ◑ 12:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I will admit that it is just speculation, but to me it seems like the only explanation that makes sense. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 12:09, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

A clusterfuck is a big mess or chaos — that doesn't relate to genderfuck. To fuck with is to tweak, or subvert expectations — that's exactly what genderfuck is. Equinox ◑ 12:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I never said a genderfuck is a clusterfuck, only that the structure of the word genderfuck is based on clusterfuck. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 12:14, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

ausculto

English auscultate derives as a back-formation from English auscultation, and not from the Latin verb auscultō. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

In that case, couldn't the same be true of the Romance languages? For example, couldn't French ausculter also just be a backformation from auscultation? Note: I am not disputing natural descendants like écouter. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:13, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

It could be true, except that's not what the etymology of the word gives on the French Wiktionary. They state it comes from the Latin verb, and I trust their information. In some cases, the etymology is known, and that information should be used to guide the addition of descendant terms. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

According to CNRTL, auscultation is attested before ausculter in French, just like in English. According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, English auscultate comes from Latin auscultātus, past participle of auscultō. I'm sure the other languages probably took the term from either French or English and molded it to fit their verb paradigms. Either way, auscultation comes from auscultātiō, which comes from the same past participle auscultātus of auscultō, so essentially they are all descendants of auscultō. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 15:07, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

But that makes assumptions at odds with published sources. The RAE (for Spanish) gives the Latin verb in the etymology of the Spanish one, and they're pretty picky about etymologies. There's probably a publishable research project in this. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you dispute that they all ultimately come from auscultō? --WikiTiki89 07:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Ultimately? No. But our etymology and descendants listing don't go by ultimate origin; the more proximate origin is desirable. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:47, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Wiktionary:About Yiddish

Hi! I've just created this page, which is meant to have a centrally located repository of information about the standardized treatment of Yiddish on Wiktionary. I'm giving you this message because you have shown interest in Yiddish, and we need your help! The page especially needs better coverage of the many undocumented headword-line and conjugation templates, but any assistance is welcomed. Please feel free to edit the page, and to raise any issues for discussion at Wiktionary talk:About Yiddish. Thanks so much! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 03:14, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for letting me know! --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:52, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

veneeton

When you move an entry, please be sure to add {{delete}} to the redirect you leave behind, so that an admin can notice and delete it.

Thanks in advance,
—Ruakh_TALK 14:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok, from now on I will. But what's wrong with a redirect? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

We generally don't want them; see Wiktionary:Redirections. —Ruakh_TALK 21:31, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

כבר

Ha, whoops, thanks. {{he-onym}}'s support for dwv= is actually the only reason I used it there, so I don't know how I managed not to actually use the dwv=. :-P   —Ruakh_TALK 20:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I figured I'd remind you. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 10:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:t

The mass deployment of {{t}} seems to be dramatically slowing down the loading of entries. Could you please stop mass-adding them until our technological adepts can come up with some less resource-intensive template? It might be quite a while, but there is hope from the prospect of the use of 'lua' to accomplish some things. Apparently each instance to {{t}} causes a template-existence test, which is the source of most of our template-related performance problems. The same seems to arise from mass-deployment of {{l}} and any of the templates that use our language-and-script system. Actually, adding {{t}} to entries with few translations doesn't cause as noticeable a problem, so perhaps your efforts could be directed there. DCDuring TALK 17:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

See User_talk:Liliana-60#dog. DCDuring TALK 17:53, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I didn't realize that. I'll stop until it's fixed. --WikiTiki89 18:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It's really good in the long run and the problem is only bad with entries with lots of instances of {{t}}, {{l}} and {{term}}. Adding an explicit 'sc=XXXX' (eg 'Latn') helps too, apparently. DCDuring TALK 18:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Well the xte script automatically adds the sc= for non-Latin scripts. It's only the {{t}}s that are already there and dont have "sc="s that end up still without one. Unless you think we should also start adding sc=Latn? --WikiTiki89 18:40, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Fête's pronunciation questions

Discussion moved to User talk:Wikitiki89/Fête's pronunciation questions.

החמיץ

If you want to use the nikúd הֶחְמִיץ instead of הֶחֱמִיץ (which I'm O.K. with: he.wikt also uses a sh'va), then I think you need to update the transliteration to match. —Ruakh_TALK 18:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Done. Don't know how I missed that. --WikiTiki89 18:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

{{he-adj-auto}}

Is this really a good idea? It seems like it just makes things more complex. (And it also reduces the usefulness of the search interface.) —Ruakh_TALK 21:17, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

How does it make things more complex? I agree that it reduces the usefulness of the search interface, but given how thoroughly we are templatizing everything, we need to find another way to fix that problem anyway. And theoretically we should be creating entries for the inflected forms. --WikiTiki89 07:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it makes things more complex in three ways. Firstly, it depends on an abstract notion of a "stem", which I don't think is an established concept, and is therefore not a way that people are used to thinking about adjective inflections. (For example, I can't imagine anyone ever thinking of an -í adjective as having a "stem" that consists of the masculine singular indefinite form plus a dagésh, with the dagésh being dropped in all singular forms and retained in all plural forms.) Secondly, it reduces the similarity between input and output. For example, from your edit to [[מצוין]]:

• {{he-adj|dwv=מְצֻיָּן|tr=m'tsuyán|f=מצוינת|fdwv=מְצֻיֶּנֶת|mp=מצוינים|mpdwv=מְצֻיָּנִים|fp=מצוינות|fpdwv=מְצֻיָּנוֹת}}
• {{he-adj-auto|tr=m'tsuyán|dwv=מְצֻיָּן|stem=מצוינ|stemdwv=מְצֻיָּנ|f=מצוינת|fdwv=מְצֻיֶּנֶת}}

In the first version, it's obvious at a glance what the four forms are. The second version is much more opaque. And thirdly, the template itself is confusingly complicated. I think you did an admirable job making it as simple as possible, but "as simple as possible" is still pretty darn complicated. If all that complexity added up to something really useful, that would be one thing — for example, verb-conjugation templates tend to have this much complexity because the alternative is making the editor type several dozen forms — but the adjective headword-template has only four forms (six, if you count mp2= and pausal=, which {{he-adj-auto}} doesn't support), and this template doesn't seem to really spare the editor the effort of constructing those forms.

—Ruakh_TALK 03:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I don't know if "stem" is the best word for it should be something like "suffixable form". Also don't forget that most other languages have automatic headword templates for adjectives, a lot of which are much more complicated. If it makes any difference, I was gonna also use the same concept when I redo the conjugation templates. Also, you would be right that typing in four forms isn't so bad, but typing in four forms with vowels is extremely annoying. Maybe it's much more useful when you don't have to specify the feminine form (see יָפֶה and מֵת). --WikiTiki89 07:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Removed comments

Sorry, I realised my original message was incorrect and I needed to rephrase the question. So your "support" didn't make any sense anymore with how I rewrote it. I hope that doesn't bother you, I'm sorry if it does. —CodeCat 18:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

My edit summary was mostly a joke since you removed my comment for good reason and I removed yours for good reason. --WikiTiki89 18:50, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

char

Regarding the citation you just added to char: I'm not sure what to do about it, but I think it's a distinct sense (an abbreviation for character in general) rather than the noun ("char" with no dot/period). The latter specifically refers to a data type, e.g. "chars can be cast to and from ints"; the former only abbreviates "character" in general. Equinox ◑ 13:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Did I add a citation? I thought I just rearranged them. Anyway I fixed the problem of accidentally deleting a sense that I meant to reword. --WikiTiki89 13:23, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Re: "But I'm not even an admin..."

Would you like to be? I'd be happy to nominate you. —Ruakh_TALK 16:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

What, are you trying to outdo Wonderfool in how many admins you've nominated?

Oh wait. I get it. Vahag was right all along. There's something fishy going on ;)

So, of course, I think you'd be a great admin. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

What mandatory responsibilities come with being an admin? --WikiTiki89 21:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The only mandatory responsibility is not to abuse the position. Deleting the main page, for example, is forbidden. ;-)   But there are various sorts of tasks that either can't be done by non-admins, or at least that tend work better when admins do them, and I think admins should participate in some such tasks every so often. Such tasks include patrolling (see Help:Patrolled edits, though actually a lot of the details have changed since that was written . . .), closing RFV and RFD and RFDO discussions, closing votes, archiving discussion-pages, maintaining WOTD and FWOTD, and so on. But to be honest, we have plenty of admins who never do anything like that, and it's just fine. —Ruakh_TALK 22:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok, then I would accept a potential nomination. --WikiTiki89 22:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

O.K.: Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2012-12/User:Wikitiki89 for admin —Ruakh_TALK 01:46, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit summary at {{he-adv}}

Template:he-adv?diff=19016340 is hard to decipher. An edit-summary like “support wv= even when dwv= is specified” would have been very helpful. —Ruakh_TALK 17:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, a lot of times I forget to put an edit summary and since you can't put one in retroactively, there isn't much I can do. --WikiTiki89 21:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Understood. —Ruakh_TALK 22:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Ladino orthography

A long time ago, you asked about Ladino orthography at the tea room and I forgot to answer you. The best online source for that is this, which will hopefully answer all your questions. I think you'll soon see why Yiddish is so blessed to have YIVO making things logical for us... —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 03:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! If only every Ladino writer had a chart like that... --WikiTiki89 06:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Implied prepositions

In idiomatic or colloquial speech prepositions are often implied:

• "I see (that) you are tired"
• "John wrote (to) Mary a letter"

Same way "The chair is metal" does not derive from "The chair is metallic" but "The chair is made of metal". Regards--Pierpao (talk) 21:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually that is not true:

• "I see (that) you are tired" – the "that" is optional even in formal speech (and it's not even a preposition).
• "John wrote (to) Mary a letter" – putting "to" in there actually makes the sentence incorrect. You are right that there are two choices: "John wrote Mary a letter." and "John wrote a letter to Mary." The first one uses "Mary" as an indirect object of the verb, while the second uses Mary as the object of a prepositional phrase.

"The chair is metal" uses "metal" as an adjective as evidenced by the parallel structure in sentences like "The chair is tall, metal, and heavy." where "metal" is used as part of a series of adjectives. You cannot say "The piece is lively, D Major, and long." because it would be mixing nouns with adjectives.

--WikiTiki89 21:41, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

mmh...Of course that is not a proposition, and you are too right about "Mary". I wanted only to be concise...anyway you have some point but regard metal I'm still in doubt; not convinced as before indeed. Piece D Major is simply incorrect. Bye--Pierpao (talk) 22:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no implied preposition in "John wrote Mary a letter". That's the syntax of the old dative case which never fell out of use. —CodeCat 22:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Conjugation of נשאר

You gave this a regular nif'ál conjugation, which is not quite right. Specifically, the ה never takes a sh'vá (*‎הְ‎) anywhere in this conjugation; instead, it takes a khatáf-patákh (‎הֲ‎) wherever a sh'vá might be expected. (And maybe other differences, too, but that's the only one that jumps out at me.) —Ruakh_TALK 20:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You must mean א. And yes, you are right, I must have missed that. --WikiTiki89 17:28, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I mean א. (The ה got in there because I consulted Tarmon and Uval just to make sure, and they list נשאר as being conjugated like their table for נבהל. Apparently I failed to translate that back.) —Ruakh_TALK 19:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Wikitiki89/Fête's pronunciation questions

Don't answer to Fête's questions if you don't want. You just encourage him his behavior and to earn a ban on the French wiktionary. Ĉiuĵaŭde (talk) 17:43, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, he is a pest. Not a vandal, just a pest. He seems well-meaning, but lacking in social graces. Urhixidur (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

מאָגן#Pronunciation

Are you sure about the [‌ən] in there? I always thought it was [n̩], although phonology (especially in Yiddish) has never been my strong suit. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:30, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I think in most languages that have these sounds, including Yiddish and English, [‌ən] and [n̩] are used interchangeably. --WikiTiki89 18:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, since we're only using narrow(er) transcriptions, it doesn't really matter. I'm sure you could find a bunch of Yiddish speakers who say that. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I think [‌ən] is a little easier to read because the little line under the "n" in [n̩] is very small. --WikiTiki89 18:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

In Dutch, it is normally [‌ən], and [n̩] is markedly dialectal (Low Saxon). However, the more usual pronunciation drops the -n, so it is only [‌ə]. —CodeCat 19:13, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

How well can you hear the difference? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:21, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

After another nasal, it is clearly [ən] (which is reflected in the orthography). Before a plosive, it is usually clearly [m̩]/[n̩]/[ŋ̩] (which is also reflected in the orthography). After everything else it, it is much harder to differentiate them (and the orthography does not write the ע). I don't think it is very useful to differentiate these different cases of the same phoneme. --WikiTiki89 20:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Off topic: how do you type Cyrillic vowels with acutes over them? I can't find them in the edittools or on my Russian keyboard. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:17, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I added the combining acute accent to my custom Russian (actually pan-Slavic Cyrillic) keyboard layout (made using the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator). I had to make my own phonetic layout because the real Russian keyboard layout is impossible to remember. They are also on the old special character entry bar under the "Save page", "Show preview", etc. buttons. --WikiTiki89 20:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah. One of the only things I really dislike about my Mac... well, there must be a way w/o virtualization. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe this can help (I've personally never tried it)? --WikiTiki89 02:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Big Mac

For a demonstration on global commercial English, I am adding and citing as many translations of (deprecated template usage) Big Mac as possible (currently, on that page alone there are French, German, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish). Could you please check the entries биг-мак (big-mak) and ביג מק (which have both been tagged with {{attention}}) and clean them up a bit? Thanks! —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 08:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, but according to this ngram, биг-мэк (big-mɛk) is more common in Russian. --WikiTiki89 14:45, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Aha, I'll move it. I assumed that /æ/ would generally be changed to /a/ in languages that lack that phoneme, except for examples like Korean where they already have something closer. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Certainly not in most Germanic languages, which replace it with /ɛ/ usually. —CodeCat 18:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Come to think of it, Pacific creoles do that too, although /æ/ is less noticeable in Australian English, so it doesn't come up quite as much. So how come (deprecated template usage) Big Mek is still a redlink? On BGC, I only see one valid Serbo-Croatian hit for it, even though by your logic it should be the Germanic default. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 18:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Because not all languages tend to respell loanwords, and the Germanic languages often don't to a greater or lesser degree (*cough* English). Especially not when it comes to proper names. German has Big Mäc at least, though. I've also found a few Google hits for Finnish bigmäkki. —CodeCat 19:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, like Catalan (deprecated template usage) Big Mec (which is funny to anyone who knows French and English), that seems to fall outside the zone of citeability. I suspect that Big Macs are a somewhat rarer topic of conversation in Fennoscandia, where people actually care about their health (remember the Danish fat tax?). I'll try some more Asian languages, because biggumakku had a lot of hits. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Russian usually transcribes English /æ/ as "э" and Hebrew usually transcribes it as a segol, while "а" and patach are usually reserved for English /ʌ/. But I agree that if it were my choice, I would borrow them as /a/-like sounds. I even once tried to order a בִּיג מַק in Israel, only to find out that it's called a בִּיג מֶק. McDonald's itself, on the other hand, is transcribed as Макдональдс (Makdonalʹds) (capitalization varies) and מַקדּוֹנַלְדְס. --WikiTiki89 20:23, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably the Russian name is because it is unstressed in English then, and an unstressed e in Russian would resemble "MicDonalds". I wonder why they added the soft sign though? —CodeCat 20:29, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

In Russian, as well as other Slavic languages, foreign /l/s are usually, but not always (see алкоголь (alkogolʹ)), transcribed with a soft /lʲ/ as opposed to a hard /l/ (which is realized as a heavily velarized [ɫ̪ˠ] and I guess seen as too different). In Polish, in fact, the soft L is the orthographic default. --WikiTiki89 20:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, ironically, McDonald's is pronounced as "MicDonalds" in English. --WikiTiki89 20:38, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

My two cents. Макдональдс is colloquial, Макдоналдс is official. Polish "soft l" is close to German and French, not as soft (palatalised) Russian "ль" /lʲ/ and Polish ł used to be pronounced as Russian /ɫ̪/ "ł sceniczne" (Poles in Lithuania, Belarus still pronounce so) but now it has become /w/. Russian use "ль" or "л" + iotised vowels traditionally, "imitating" French and German, borrowings from English increasingly avoid palatalistion of "l". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)