Talk:black canker

RFC discussion: November 2015–February 2021

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black canker

1. A disease in turnips and other crops, produced by a species of caterpillar.

As far as I can tell from a glance at Google and bgc, black canker is the caterpillar itself. I haven't seen anything indicating it's the disease (but didn't look properly). Separately, there seems to be a disease of trees, or maybe a fungus that causes such, of the same name.​—msh210℠ (talk) 23:54, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

In plants black canker seems to be any cankers that manifest in black disfigurement of plant tissue, including various ones affecting cherry, apple, parsnip, soursop, willow, and mango. There is a black canker caterpillar (genus Tenthredo), but modern sources refer to fungi and bacteria as the causal agents, mostly differing by affected plant. Perhaps the caterpillar is a vector for some black cankers. It seems like yet another little research project for proper disambiguation. DCDuring TALK 00:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

It is fairly common that vernacular names for diseases are used as vernacular names of the causal agent (or agent thought to be causal). DCDuring TALK 01:02, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Just FYI, Tenthredo aren't caterpillars, they're sawfly larvae- primitive Hymenoptera. They do look a lot like caterpillars, though (sometimes it takes counting legs to tell them apart- sawflies have more pairs of legs than caterpillars do). Chuck Entz (talk) 04:08, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Here is an example of the larva being called black canker without any mention of a disease. Sawflies tend to appear in large numbers and devour everything in sight belonging to their food plant species with unnerving speed. If your entire crop is being rapidly destroyed by a huge mass of insects, you might start to think of them collectively, as a force of nature like a disease. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I took a stab at improving this entry. A few notes:

1. "Black canker" can refer to a lot of plant diseases. I counted at least three pathogens associated with the name (Itersonilia perplexans, Ceratocystis fimbriata, Glomerella miyabeana - all fungi), and many affected species. Finding quotes for this sense is tricky because sometimes the phrase is used generically with a compositional meaning, e.g. "The Aspen is a short-lived tree, subject to a black canker caused by an insect...".
2. I couldn't find support for a disease caused by the larvae. As far as I can tell, they just eat crops, not infect them (as Chuck Entz says above). I think the 1913 Webster definition is just in error.
3. Maybe there should also be an entry for black canker caterpillar? Actually, I've discovered it goes by a lot of other names, including black jack, black palmer, palmer-worm, black caterpillar and a few which would now be considered very offensive. May try to add these if I can find enough attested uses. Presumably there should be one 'main' definition, with the others just saying "Synonym of X". I'm not sure how to decide which should be the main one though. "Black canker caterpillar" has the advantage of being least ambiguous, but it's less common than some of the others.
4. There are some uses of the term to denote a disease/symptom in humans, but it's hard to pin down a common meaning. Merriam Webster says severe diptheria. This source says severe gangrene. This one says mouth sores symptomatic of "typhoid and other low grades of disease". Didn't find enough to spin into a cogent definition.

I've boldly removed the rfc template from the page, but feel free to revert if you think that's premature. Colin M (talk) 04:49, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

black canker caterpillar merits an entry by the misnomer principle. Ie, the fact that it isn't truly a caterpillar means the term isn't SoP. The limit on the misnomer principal is that a term like caterpillar is not just applied to "true" caterpillars, but also things that resemble caterpillars. DCDuring (talk) 11:35, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Closed, as rfc is no longer on the page and there seems to be no major opposition. — surjection ⟨??⟩ 22:36, 7 February 2021 (UTC)