Talk:say grace

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say grace

For goodness' sake.—msh210℠ 17:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, "grace". I said grace. Cynewulf 17:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you said "grace", not grace. Was my nomination unclear? This is nothing more than a sum of its parts. There is no sense of grace, q.v., that "say grace" (as opposed to "say 'grace'") can possibly mean except "prayer before/after a meal". Anyone coming across the phrase "say grace" in literature will most likely look up grace, not this entry, and will find what he needs. If we have an entry say grace then we should also have say a prayer, say prayers, say the answer, etc. I say "delete".—msh210℠ 18:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Do people who say grace also say things like "don't eat your food until after grace", "don't fidget during grace", and so on? Or is it only "until after we've said grace", "while we're saying grace"? (looking around) Ah, it appears so, I would have thought it would be at least capitalized (Grace). Cynewulf 18:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[1]—msh210℠ 18:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, delete away. Cynewulf 18:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The word grace can be used in many collocations like all the ones Cynewulf has above. We were missing a more precise sense of "say" (which only had 3!!! senses) that fit: recite. There should be no more reason to capitalize "grace" than to capitalize "prayers", not to say that it doesn't happen (for both words). DCDuring 18:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Af far as I know, grace has this particular meaning only in the phrase "to say grace". The translations of it also tend to be idiomatic. Keep. —Stephen 00:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[2]—msh210℠ 00:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I have yet to read here which of the tests for idiomaticity this collocation meets. BTW, Grace seems to be often capitalized in discussions of Jewish Grace practices, which is normally after the meal. I have seen the expression "say Grace" hardly at all in these writings. Perhaps "say grace" is a Christian idiom. "Before", "during", and "after" are the most common words collocated with grace after the forms of "say". There are variants of saying: "intone", "whisper". DCDuring 01:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Weak keep. While it's obvious that for many speakers "grace" can be used fairly generally in this sense, for me it can only be used in the set phrases "grace before meals" (Christian), "grace after meals" (Jewish), and "say grace" (Christian again), and comments above suggest that I'm not the only person for whom this word is so restricted. So, it would be nice to have entries for these set phrases; but a usage note at grace would serve almost as well. —Ruakh_TALK 08:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep as per comments by user Ruakh. --Dmol 09:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep please, set phrase. Widsith 10:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Should it be kept for the translations? All the languages that I recognize use a different verb in lieu of say: fi-read, de-speak, fr-make, pt-give, es-bless, sv-beg. Hekaheka 22:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Weak keep as is, or strong as phrasebook entry if nothing else. I believe the term to be a set phrase. While give grace is more clearly idiomatic, if less common, this may also qualify. Its association with meals narrows the definition of grace. DAVilla 07:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Hm, idiomatic for only some speakers? Interesting idea. Looking at cites, there's "a secular grace" vs "an appropriate Christian grace", so for these people it's just a general noun. There's even "say a grace". Really don't know what to do here. Cynewulf 18:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep. It's a set phrase used for that ritual of saying a prayer before eating. Right? Etc. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 21:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

To all the people saying "keep, set phrase", have you looked on bgc for the cites of "grace" meaning prayer in other contexts, and how do you think this relates to "say grace"? Cynewulf 18:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The only time it has that particular meaning is in the phrase "say grace", though, right? I could be wrong. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 19:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I guess people didn't believe me before.

• 1898, Lewis Naphtali Dembitz, Jewish Services in Synagogue and Home, page 345

  [...] and when they had only one cup, to hold it in the hand during grace and to drink it after grace with the words [...]

• 1908, Martin G. Brumbaugh (trans.), Christopher Dock, The Life and Works of Christopher Dock, page 204

  During grace, do not let your hands dangle, or move them otherwise, but let them, with your eyes, be raised to God.

• 2007, Adrian Butash, Bless This Food, page 4

  When we say a grace at the table before eating, we give thanks for our togetherness, our blessings, and our happiness.

• 1994, Nicole Landry Sault, Many Mirrors: Body Image and Social Relations, page 113

  When "I'm so fat" is said in the girls' locker room, [...] When the statement comes before eating, it provides an apology or excuse by the speaker for the indulgence at hand (in effect, a secular "grace" before eating).

• 2002, Bruce Northam, Globetrotter Dogma, page 103

  I was greeted on the matted floor of the town meeting hall by the chief and his entourage for a customary sevu sevu greeting — similar to a Christian grace before a meal, except both host and visitor say quiet prayers, all heads bowed.

• 1996, Milton Steinberg, As a Driven Leaf, page 57

  Painfully aware of his youth and unimportance, Elisha slipped unobtrusively into the first vacant place he spied, broke bread, murmured the appropriate grace, and ventured to look up.

There's more. Cynewulf 20:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

3 more at Citations:grace (total 9), I'll put the rest there as I get around to them. Cynewulf 20:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

...I'm confused. What is even remotely questionable about this? It's an *OBVIOUS* keep. 140.254.225.48 05:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you look at the citations immediately above? Cynewulf 05:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, a) on gut feeling that it is a set phrase, and b) on observing that it seems to meet various tests of idiomaticity. Specifically it is i) far from the most obvious combination of the numerous senses of say and grace, and ii) does not comply with normal grammatical rules. We say a prayer (or prayers), we make a pledge (or pledges); "say prayer" and "make pledge" would be quite ungrammatical in most contexts. -- Visviva 17:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Kept per consensus. Is a set phrase, and has interesting translations. --Keene 00:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Requests for deletion - kept

Kept. See archived discussion of January 2008. 07:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)