Talk:قلعہ

IPA

@Ash wki Yes, in normal speech, the 'Ain isn't pronounced, that is not, however, to say that it is not pronounced. In Standard / Formal / Religious speech – whatever you want to call it, it does get pronounced and even dictionaries preserve it. It is exactly why there is a broad transcription and a narrow transcription. I didn't include the pharyngeal consonant for fun. نعم البدل (talk) 15:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

On a different note, please stop changing the transliterations. There was a huge debate on the Urdu transliteration. The Majhool vowels do not need to be transliterated differently to the usual mapping of the short diacritics. نعم البدل (talk) 15:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل, And what majhool vowels are you talking about here? The issue you are having is with Ayin and not majhool vowels. The proper transliteration is Qilā. The Ayin is silent. That's how all Urdu speakers pronounce it. - Ash wki (talk) 16:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: I was talking about your other changes on other Urdu lemmas. We do have minor differences between Hindi and Urdu transliterations, and that includes transliterating the 'ain. The "proper" transliteration for قِلْعَہ is what Module:ur-translit throws out. نعم البدل (talk) 16:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل, you are making up a new register of Hindustani it seems. Or, as I told you, you are confusing it with the gutteral sounds of ق (q), خ (x) and غ (ġ) in formal standard Urdu. These 3 letters are pronounced gutterally in Persian, that's why they are pronounced so in Urdu. But other emphatic letters like ع, ح (h), ص (s), ض (z), ط (t) and ظ (z) are not. - Ash wki (talk) 16:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: I'm going to mention this the one time only because you keep repeating it, and it's irritating now. With respect, you are not the native Urdu speaker, I am. I went to Urdu-medium schools, you likely did not. I do know the Urdu alphabet and what sounds the individual letters make. So please stop insisting that I do not know the difference between the letters you mentioned above. I've also had training in Urdu sounds, as well as Arabic Tajweed (separately). I speak Urdu on a daily basis, you likely do not. Rest assured, I do know what I'm talking about.

If you want to hold yourself in the delusion that there's something called 'Hindustani' especially in the 21st century, by all means do so, but please do not involve yourself in any Urdu discussions. نعم البدل (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل What? You are a native speaker and you have no clue about Urdu phonology or history or that Urdu is one of two registers of Hindustani? Is this a joke? Please don't troll and vandalize entries. Had enough of this clownery. - Ash wki (talk) 16:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: – Take it up at any of the Discussion rooms. Don't start changing the transliteration because there's already one set, and don't remove the pharyngeal because other Urdu users have agreed with me, previously. There is a reason why Urdu and Hindi haven't been combined into a single language on Wikimedia. Stop trying to erase any nature differences between them. No one unironically calls their language "Hindustani" سوائے اگر اُن پر "ہندوستانی" کا بھوت سوار ہو. By all means change the Hindi lemmas to your hearts content. نعم البدل (talk) 16:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC) نعم البدل (talk) 16:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل No, not at all. Letters like Ayin, Sād and Twā are always pronounced as Alif, Sīn and Tā in formal standard Urdu. You are probably mixing it up with Qāf, Xe and Gayn, which are off course pronounced gutterally as they are in Persian. Ash wki (talk) 15:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: No, I'm pretty sure, I do know the huge difference between Qaf, xe, ghain and Sad, Toe and ain. I also wasn't talking about sad or toe in particular either. I am specifically talking about the Ain in Urdu. See this example in Rekhta. They clearly pronounce it, and I don't include it for every single words with an 'Ain' in it, it's (thus far) only in words which I know have been pronounced with the pharyngeal consonant. نعم البدل (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل, I just checked the Rekhta link. Where did they pronounce the Ayin? Are you mistaking the apostrophe (') for Ayin? The apostrophe is very clearly to separate the 'a' from the 'i' because "ai" together is a diphthong in Urdu phonology and pronounced as "æ" (e.g. بیٹھنا is pronounced as bæthnā instead of ba-ithna). - Ash wki (talk) 16:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: Once again, I do know the difference between the diphthong and the 'ain. How can you not hear it? This example from Rekhta has a diphthong. The فاعِل (fā'il) example is clearly not being pronounced as فَائِل...

نعم البدل (talk) 16:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل In both your Rekhta examples, there is not even a single syllable of pharyngeal Ayin sound. It is clearly being pronounced as a Hamzā (ئ). Yes as فائل, مائل. Please look up Urdu phonology as well as IPA. - Ash wki (talk) 16:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: It is not. Listen to these three examples from Rekhta فاعل with the 'Ain pronounced, مائل is an example of a diphthong, and this example قائل is the glottal stop. They are all different. Let me reiterate, I do understand the varying sounds. If you want, you can go check UDB as well. نعم البدل (talk) 16:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل, are you trying to create another register of Hindustani? Ask yourself this: Why would an Indo-Aryan language developed from Persian and Indic Dehlavi dialects have exclusive Arabic sounds that do not exist in any of the parent languages? Neither Persian, nor Prakrit, nor Urdu is a Semitic language. - Ash wki (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

No Urdu is clearly part of the Uralic language family.

• Why would an Indo-Aryan language developed from Persian and Indic Dehlavi dialects have exclusive Arabic sounds that do not exist in any of the parent languages? – Because we are referring to Standard Urdu, not colloquial Urdu which is quite different. نعم البدل (talk) 16:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

نعم البدل Uralic? Are you kidding me? Sorry, I am not trying to be rude but you seem to me like a delusional person. Your comments will tell anyone you don't know much about Urdu, standard or colloquial. - Ash wki (talk) 17:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: Yes obviously Uralic, which originates from Sino-European (!).

• I am not trying to be rude – You were already rude when your were insistent on explaining the Urdu alphabet to a native speaker. Good day. نعم البدل (talk) 17:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Kutchkutch, Benwing2 Please weigh in here to @Ash wki:'s incessant Edit warring, and changing of Urdu transliterations + the IPA issue. نعم البدل (talk) 17:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Please stop lying. You being a non-Urdu speaker is vandalizing the entry with your ignorance and delusions. - Ash wki (talk) 17:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: Really? Repeatedly changing the transliteration so it conforms to the Hindi standard instead of WT:Urdu transliteration, isn't edit warring? Changing the opinion of multiple editors isn't edit warring, even the phonology? (The Arabic ayn sound discussion)? You're not even a native Urdu speaker. نعم البدل (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل, ironic how according to WT:Urdu transliteration, no pharyngeal consonant sound can be found anywhere in the entire table. Just look it up yourself right now. Please stop pretending to be a native Urdu speaker and vandalizing Urdu transliteration. - Ash wki (talk) 18:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• @Ash wki: stop pretending to be a native Urdu speaker Perhaps you'd like to explain my own life to me as well, and perhaps clarify that I've spoken Russian and not Urdu / Punjabi 😂.
• @Ash wki: Yes because that is the transliteration, not the Urdu phonology section, or does it need to be explained that transliteration and phonology are two completely different things? It's not meant to be a comprehensive guide on Urdu phonology nor is it fully complete. نعم البدل (talk) 18:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل, Also I just read your discussion from the linked page, you failed to provide any source for the ع being pronounced as a pharyngeal consonant in Urdu. Your claim is based on your insistent mishearing of glottal stops. - Ash wki (talk) 18:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and the other user agreed that it was indeed the Ain being pronounced and not a glottal stop or merely a diphthong. That's where you're wrong. UDB, Rekhta both pronounce it, ie. Dictionaries preserve the sound, because it is part of Standard Urdu. You clearly do not know Urdu well enough, and limit it to 'Hindi-Urdu' (ie. "Hindustani") نعم البدل (talk) 18:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The other user also happened to be a native Urdu speaker, but I suppose you have the authority to say who is a native speaker and isn't. lol نعم البدل (talk) 18:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل, no, the other guy didn't agree. You are being delusional again. He said he didn't find any credible source that indicated ع to be pharyngeal. No real Urdu speaker, native or otherwise, is going to agree with such wild delusions. - Ash wki (talk) 18:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki::

• but a dictionary by the goverment pronouncing it as /ʕ ~ ɑ̯/ def says something. نعم البدل (talk) 18:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Please provide the name of this government dictionary. 😊 - Ash wki (talk) 18:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: UDB! http://udb.gov.pk. Let me just clarify, in case there is an issue with terminology, and perhaps either of us are confusing terms. Transcribe audio file into IPA جماعت, please. And also clarify, were any of the ains in the previous three example the same sound for you?

Refer to:

• Listen to these three examples from Rekhta فاعل with the 'Ain pronounced, مائل is an example of a diphthong, and this example قائل is the glottal stop

Are the ains all different sounds, or are any of them the same?

نعم البدل (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل, Ok, while it does sound like a pharyngeal Ayin, we can't be completely sure. Sometimes Alif/Hamza might sound like an Ayin in a recorded voice if stressed. - Ash wki (talk) 19:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: Fine, since there's no agreement, I'll remove the pharyngeal from قِلْعَہ's pronunciation and replace it with a glottal stop since at least there should be no issue with that, but I am reverting your edit, and restoring the mod-generated transliteration. نعم البدل (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Okay, fine. Then put the 2nd pronunciation (the qilā one) in square brackets to indicate it's the general but not the standard pronunciation, which is qil'ā.

- Ash wki (talk) 20:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: – It's what I wanted but for that you'd have to use Template:IPA, instead of Template:ur-IPA, since the latter relies on the basic Module:hi-IPA. نعم البدل (talk) 20:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks. Ash wki (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Also, please prove your claim of Urdu being Uralic. Try calling for the inheritance template for an Urdu word from any language other than Sanskrit or Prakrit here on Wiktionary. It will say that that particular language is not the ancestor of Urdu. May be try inheriting from an actual Uralic language like Hungarian or Finnic. Go on. I'll wait. - Ash wki (talk) 18:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, is that a point of contention? Urdu isn't from the Uralic family? But I thought Urdu and Uralic were similar so they had to be the same?

_{I was joking, if you hadn't realised...} نعم البدل (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Don't backtrack now. You very clearly stated Standard Urdu belongs to the Uralic family. - Ash wki (talk) 18:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل @Ash wki I am not a native Urdu speaker but I notice that Urdu alphabet says the ayn is silent, and Urdu phonology makes no mention of a pharyngeal fricative in Urdu. User:Ash wki if you continue to edit war you will be blocked. Benwing2 (talk) 18:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 You just exactly said what I'm telling this guy @نعم البدل all along. Why are you warning me instead of him who is the one doing the vandalism? - Ash wki (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: See my above reply. I'm willing to even disregard the pharyngeal if it means to come to a conclusion but answer my reply above. نعم البدل (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل Which reply? - Ash wki (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: See this diff نعم البدل (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't mean to rush you, but I am waiting. @Ash wki: نعم البدل (talk) نعم البدل (talk) 19:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

OK I see there is a reference to "Standard Urdu" different from Colloquial Urdu. I don't know anything about that so I can't comment. Benwing2 (talk) 19:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki Because community consensus has decided to represent the ayn in a certain way, and it looks like you are the one trying to edit war to change this. Benwing2 (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Pharyngeal sounds don't occur in Urdu at all, standard or colloquial, formal or informal. Its parent languages do not have that sound either. It is an Arabic and Semitic sound. - Ash wki (talk) 19:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The same can be said for ghain, qaf, ze and fe and even zhe. These sounds aren't found it Prakrit or Sanskrit either? نعم البدل (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل These sounds are found in Persian, one of Urdu's parent languages though not ancestral. Urdu, a register of Hindustani, as you might need to know, is an Indo-Aryan language developed through heavy Persian influence. - Ash wki (talk) 19:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki: Let me make it clear for you, I was taking the piss when I said Urdu is an Uralic language, so drop the "as you might need to know", alright? Point still stands, Urdu speakers can pronounce the /q/ and /ʒ/, but Hindi speakers cannot without receiving special training for those sounds, yet Urdu speakers can. Clearly indicating that you cannot lump Hindi-Urdu into one as 'Hindustani'. Why is it so difficult to believe that Standard Urdu may have adopted the pharyngeal consonant, especially since the letter is retained. After all, Urdu speakers can actually (p.146-147) pronounce it. Also to clarify, I never said that the pharyngeal consonant was pronounced in every single Urdu word with an 'ain', I said, I only included it in words that I know have been pronounced. نعم البدل (talk) 19:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm still waiting on the previous question. I'm not testing you, I'm just ensuring we're not getting terms mixed up. نعم البدل (talk) 19:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@نعم البدل, Urdu speakers can only pronounce sounds that present are in Persian and Prakrit. Hindi speakers can pronounce the Persian sounds (ف (f) and ز), which are also present in English but not the others because of Sanskritization. So they can only pronounce sounds that are only in Sanskrit and Prakrit (the only exception being the above two). But again many Hindi speakers, esp. those from the rural areas cannot pronounce even the above two because of the lack of or very little exposure to English.

None of this however has anything to do with Arabic sounds. Neither Urdu nor Hindi speakers can pronounce Arabic sounds unless trained.

There is no doubt Hindustani is the original lingua franca and "Urdu" (language of the high camp) and "Hindi," ("of Hind") and historically "Hindavi," ("of Hindi people") "Dehlavi" ("Delhite") are different registers and dialects of it. - Ash wki (talk) 20:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ash wki:

• There is no doubt Hindustani is the original lingua franca and "Urdu" (language of the high camp) and "Hindi," ("of Hind") and historically "Hindavi," ("of Hindi people") "Dehlavi" ("Delhite") are different registers and dialects of it. – I agree, there's nothing I disagree with here. I disagreed with the fact that there's no such thing as 'Hindustani' in modern contexts and to treat Hindi-Urdu as strictly one language despite the fact they've diverged quite a lot, and ignoring any differences between them is delusional.
• As for the Ain. Like I said, it isn't difficult to believe that when Urdu was standardised, the pharyngeal consonant was also included as 'Standard Urdu' pronunciation, even if most people don't pronounce it. I'll even try reference this from Urdu linguistic papers, when I get the time. نعم البدل (talk) 20:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright. And I am very sorry for being rude. But for the time being I still don't see why ع would be vocalized the same way as Arabic anyways since the others like ح, ص, ض, ط, ظ are not. - Ash wki (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I apologise for being rude as well.

• I still don't see why ع would be vocalized the same way as Arabic anyways since the others like ح, ص, ض, ط, ظ are not. That's a fair point. That being said, I have also heard ض being pronounced as a /d/, closer to the original Arabic pronunciation, despite it being more commonly pronounced as [z], but I'm not sure about the other letters.

Also, while I do retain my theory about the pharyngeal consonant being part of Standard Urdu, I did back down from the hill, after I read a paper which said that essentially the pronunciation of 'Ain in Urdu is a point of contention. Ain, if pronounced, is typically a glottal stop, that's the less contested point, overall, so it's better to keep it that way. نعم البدل (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The editing of User:Taimoorahmed11 (User1267183728390127891247) and User:نعم_البدل has placed User:نعم_البدل in a position to suggest what changes need to be made to the earlier community consensus to treat Hindi and Urdu as a single entity that only differ in script. Kutchkutch (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Sorry, I don't understand your point. You added my name twice, was that a mistake, or did you mean to add someone else? FWIF, It really doesn't matter to me whether Hindi and Urdu are treated as a single language or not. I just don't want valid differences between Hindi and Urdu to be disregarded or for Urdu to be considered 'less' or subordinate to Hindi. نعم البدل (talk) 20:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• @نعم_البدل: Sorry if I was unclear. What I meant earlier was that your presence on Wiktionary in the past few years and the automatic transliteration provided by MOD:ur-translit has made it evident that the consensus regarding Urdu transliteration has changed. The consensus has shifted from showing a colloquial transliteration, which is usually very similar to Hindi, to showing a formal transliteration, which is present in Urdu dictionaries such as T:R:ur:Qureshi. In this case, the change would be from lā to la'h for the second syllable of قِلَعْہ. Showing a formal transliteration was probably not done earlier because Wiktionary’s coverage of Urdu was minimal and therefore reliant on Hindi out of convenience. However, as the coverage of Urdu has grown, showing Urdu-specific features that differ from Hindi may be useful instead of making them entirely equivalent other than script. Furthermore, Hindi editors may be unaware of the Urdu-specific features that differ from Hindi, so relying on Hindi has meant that attention to these Urdu-specific features may have been neglected.
• Regarding the IPA, if you believe that (ʔ) needs to be shown in the phonemic transcription then it should be shown. If Wikipedia does not mention its existence perhaps this is because it only describes the colloquial pronunciation. Hindi editors would be unaware about the pronunciation of ع in Urdu, and ع would only be of historical phonological interest to explain phenomena such as a' → ā in بَعْد / बाद and u' → o in شُعْلَہ / शोला. Including the apostrophe in the input to T:ur-IPA has always been shown as (ʔ). Kutchkutch (talk) 06:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Kutchkutch:, That's quite alright.

  • that the consensus regarding Urdu transliteration has changed – As you say, it's because Wiktionary's coverage of Urdu has expanded, and we have a couple more Urdu users on this site, and the Hindi transliteration just doesn't feel right for Urdu. I have to admit when I first started, getting used to Wiktionary was a little tricky because there was no format or template for Urdu, and things like a mixed transliteration or a lack of a transliteration standard etc. made it a bit difficult as well.
  • Furthermore, Hindi editors may be unaware of the Urdu-specific features that differ from Hindi, so relying on Hindi has meant that attention to these Urdu-specific features may have been neglected. And I'd also like to clarify, that I have absolutely no issues with fellow Hindi contributors, however it's just certain experiences I've had on this site, which has led me to certain issue, certainly no issues that I would hold against anyone, any certainly none against you (just in case I came off as passive aggressive).
  • If Wikipedia does not mention its existence perhaps this is because it only describes the colloquial pronunciation I've actually not paid much to the Wiki articles, however for whatever reason the references given do actually also mention the glottal stop, but for whatever reason it's not mentioned on the articles itself (it's the pharyngeal fricative which I actually was debating about, but I've backed down from that, and on second thoughts it is a stretch so it's better to not include it). I can give references for the glottal stop quite easily, if need be. I have tried to sort out the Urdu IPA, but my coding is a little weak, especially when it comes to Lua, lol.
  • Hindi editors would be unaware about the pronunciation of ع in Urdu, and ع I would say it's the say same for the opposite as well. Many Urdu speakers don't understand how /f/ becomes /pʰ/, since they have no knowledge of the Hindi alphabet. I think the main point should be is how the speakers of the respective languages perceive their language, and perhaps how it should come across to those learning those language, that's my personal opinion.نعم البدل (talk) 10:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  Do you need any specific help fixing up the Urdu IPA module? Benwing2 (talk) 03:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Benwing2: The introduction of narrow transcriptions, and optional dialectal transcriptions (like Punjabic Urdu which I commonly add, something similar should be done for Hindi as well). Also would be great if it could generate the IPA based on the vocalised Urdu, rather than just the transliteration. نعم البدل (talk) 03:18, 19 April 2024 (UTC)