Talk:働

Adopted into Chinese

Section added. —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 00:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed on Wikipedia that this is one of the very few 国字 / 和製漢字 to have been adpoted into Chinese from Japanese. This gives it even an "on" reading, rare for a kokuji. This is probably worthy of mention in the article itself someday. — Hippietrail 14:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the observation! I’ve created a category Category:Japanese-coined CJKV characters used outside Japanese and added a note to that effect to the article.

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 00:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Following up, I suspect that the on reading dō is simply derived from the on reading of the phonetic 動 – compare 活動 katsudō and 労働 rōdō – and not due to its use in Chinese. I.e., I suspect that terms such as 労働 are 和製漢語 – Japanese-coined words – or re-spellings of older words, not later borrowings from Chinese. Still, quite interesting that it has an on reading, which I’ve noted in the article – thanks!

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 09:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

@Atitarev It is Japanese but is sometimes used in running Chinese text without any explanation (i.e. 勞働). I think this can be considered "Chinese usage" of a sort. See also Dictionary of Chinese Character Variants (教育部異體字字典), A00395-001. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:48, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

It's also acknowledged in the s:zh:通用规范汉字表 as a variant of 動. —suzukaze (t・c) 09:46, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I didn't get the ping but OK, thanks. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:49, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

According to Xiandai Hanyu Cidian 《現代漢語詞典》 (6th edition, 2012): “働”是“劳动”的“动（動）”的异体字。.

Translation: “働” is a variant form of “动（動）” used in the term 勞動／劳动 (láodòng)

This character is also found in the 1915 Zhonghua Da Zidian 《中華大字典》 with the following definition:

日本字。吾國人通讀之若動。訓解不一。政法書所見者均爲勤業勞力之義。經濟學稱勞働爲生產三要素之一。又自働車之働。即拆其字謂乘人自動之意也。 [MSC, trad.]
日本字。吾国人通读之若动。训解不一。政法书所见者均为勤业劳力之义。经济学称劳动为生产三要素之一。又自动车之动。即拆其字谓乘人自动之意也。 [MSC, simp.]

From: 1915, 《中華大字典·子集·人部·十一畫》 (Zhonghua Da Zidian)

Rìběn zì. Wú guó rén tōngdú zhī ruò dòng. Xùn jiě bùyī. Zhèngfǎ shū suǒjiàn zhě jūn wèi qín yè láolì zhī yì. Jīngjìxué chēng láodòng wèi shēngchǎn sān yàosù zhīyī. Yòu zìdòngchē zhī dòng. Jí chāi qí zì wèi chéng rén zìdòng zhī yì yě. [Pinyin]

Japanese character. The people of our nation pronounce this character similar to 動 (dòng). Interpretation of its meaning is inconsistent. The term found in political books refers to hard work and manual labor. In economics, "勞働" is one of the three main elements of production. Also found in the phrase 自働車. By separating the components of the character, the character means [vehicle] that allows the riding person (人) to move (動) on its own.

KevinUp (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

RFV discussion: March 2017–February 2020

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

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働 and 𫢙

RFV for Chinese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

For 働, see the talk page.

For 𫢙, I wonder if the evidence for inclusion in Unicode can be located... —suzukaze (t・c) 00:41, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Unicode got 𫢙 from 中國大百科全書, according to its G source (GBK-1000.40). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I know about that part; I meant specifically within the patchwork PDFs they assemble and dump into http://appsrv.cse.cuhk.edu.hk/~irg/. —suzukaze (t・c) 00:46, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I see. That will take some fishing. As for 働, why don't we just have a {{zh-see}}? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I've traced 𫢙 back to the extension D submission by the PRC (IRGN1262), which lists it under characters used in personal names. I don't see evidence from the original source, though. (It might be there, but I can't find it at the moment.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Is it a good idea to verify ALL kokuji and Japanese shinjitai, which are different from Chinese simp. forms for their existence in Chinese and Korean? Unihan just does a misservice by providing reading for characters that are not used in these languages, IMO.--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:15, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Assuming 勞働 exists, then it seems to me that should be sufficient for keeping 働 in some form – either an "only in" entry the way it is now, or a {{zh-see}} the way Justinrleung suggests. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:56, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

𫢙 RFV-failed, 働 kept but if someone wants to change it back to an {{only used in}} entry, go ahead. - -sche (discuss) 17:56, 12 February 2020 (UTC)