Talk:叔孫
nephew[edit]
@Mar vin kaiser I was wondering if you remember where the "nephew" sense for Malaysian Hokkien is from. If it's from Timothy Tye's dictionary, I wonder if he's removed this sense. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 05:38, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: The only time I add for Penang Hokkien is the Timothy Tye dictionary website. Although, in this Penang Hokkien group, one commenter said "nephew" is "cek1 soon1" here. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:09, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: Hmm, I see. I wonder if there's something more "reliable". @Freelance Intellectual, would you be able to help here? Is chek-sun used for both "nephew" and "grandnephew"? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 06:21, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @justinrleung I haven't found a reference for chek-sun. My understanding is that sun(-á) is the normal way to refer to a niece or nephew or grandchild. Adding chek- might be to disambiguate, but then I would expect it to mean "younger brother's child". Not sure about "grandnephew" or "grandniece". Freelance Intellectual (talk) 10:35, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Freelance Intellectual: Thanks for your reply. I think we probably need a little more evidence than just the Facebook group. I have sent this to the Penang Hokkien senses to RFV. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 15:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- @justinrleung I haven't found a reference for chek-sun. My understanding is that sun(-á) is the normal way to refer to a niece or nephew or grandchild. Adding chek- might be to disambiguate, but then I would expect it to mean "younger brother's child". Not sure about "grandnephew" or "grandniece". Freelance Intellectual (talk) 10:35, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: Hmm, I see. I wonder if there's something more "reliable". @Freelance Intellectual, would you be able to help here? Is chek-sun used for both "nephew" and "grandnephew"? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 06:21, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Xiamen for "male relative; distant male relative"[edit]
@Mlgc1998 Is this solely based on Douglas' entry on chek-sun hiaⁿ-tī on page 464? I'm not sure if this would be right, since 叔孫兄弟 might be worth its own entry. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 05:45, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung I was comparing what was written in the sources i put in the edit history and the Douglas entry and the taiwanese ones and the existing Malaysian Hokkien sense someone put before was telling me that it would likely be awkward if this term with 叔 included female relatives for Xiamen and Taiwanese, so I added "male" to be sure on what they meant there. Mlgc1998 (talk) 05:59, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: What I meant to ask you was whether this word is actually used in Xiamen for this sense. Douglas only has chek-sun hiaⁿ-tī rather than chek-sun just by itself, so it's not clear whether this sense is used in Xiamen by itself (without the hiaⁿ-tī part). I also don't think it's necessarily male relatives only as far as I can understand from the dictionaries; it's not a good idea to get meanings from the individual morphemes, though they are sometimes a cue. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 06:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung That is something to think about. I'll leave you to how else to label and word the definitions better, since these definitions are all somehow linked to each other and I put there how I understood the available sources I found and the other cues about this word like all the other Hokkien terms structured as _孫 (enter 孫 in ChhoeTaigi with "相關--ê" selected) and the colonial-era loanwords into surnames common among Filipinos, especially Chinese Mestizo descendants, ending in "-son"/"-zon"/"-chon", such as Tecson/Ticzon, Quiason/Quiazon, Tiongson, Tuazon/Tuason, Sioson, Pecson, Dizon, Sitchon, Anson, etc. Those are the cues I know so far about this term. This seems like a technical genealogical kind of term in Hokkien, so the other native speakers available to me understand this term a bit fuzzy as well. I believe the definitions there can be structured better somehow, not too sure exactly how else besides how I structured it recently. Some of them maybe can be merged but perhaps u know how else to structure it. Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung Oh yeah, this surname might be related somehow Siocson. Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: What I meant to ask you was whether this word is actually used in Xiamen for this sense. Douglas only has chek-sun hiaⁿ-tī rather than chek-sun just by itself, so it's not clear whether this sense is used in Xiamen by itself (without the hiaⁿ-tī part). I also don't think it's necessarily male relatives only as far as I can understand from the dictionaries; it's not a good idea to get meanings from the individual morphemes, though they are sometimes a cue. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 06:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
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Chinese. Rfv-sense: (Penang Hokkien) fraternal nephew (brother's son) and (Penang Hokkien) fraternal grandnephew. See Talk:叔孫. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- RFV failed. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)