Talk:𬣫

Nonstandard simplified?

@H2NCH2COOH, Fish bowl, I was wondering if this should be considered the nonstandard simplified form of 𬣍. It seems to be the only attested simplified form, such as in 汉语方言大词典 and 客家话词典. I know 简化字总表 would not allow 團 → 团 to be extended, but 言 → 讠 is extendable; however, ⿰讠團 is not attested AFAIK. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Note that while 團 is not extendable, 專 -> 专 is. But I highly doubt if this theoretical simplified form is known by anyone, nor do I think it is attestable. I believe this type of inconsistency is why the new guideline recommends no off-table simplification, despite Wiktionary having adopted the tacit rule of applying simplification anyway. H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 12:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: So technically the extended simplified form would be ⿰讠⿴囗专 if we stick to the rules in 简化字总表? It is true that the way we apply simplification is not recommended by the new guidelines. It makes me think whether we should loosen what we allow as "simplified" or make it consistent with the new guidelines. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Preferably establishing a practical guideline for Wiktionary. Actually, not only Chinese simplified forms, but Japanese simplified forms also need standards in Wiktionary. While it is still arguable in Simplified Chinese, it doesn't really make sense to label both standard and extended shinjitai forms as "shinjitai forms". Here is my idea:

• For Chinese:
  • Simplified-Traditional pairs in the Table of General Standard Chinese Character shall be recognized as standard simplification, regardless of their priority in GBK encoding or input methods.
  • Simplified-Traditional pairs off-table but follow the simplification rules in 简化字总表 (albeit now obsolete) shall be recognized as simplified forms, but labeled as off-table simplification. Keep these off-table simplification pairs in the conversion table.
  • When an off-table simplified form is not available, do not add an artificially created simplified form using Ideographic Description Sequence (IDS).
• For Japanese:
  • Shinjitai-kyujitai pairs in the Joyo Kanji Table shall be recognized as standard simplification. E.g. 会 (shinjitai) - 會 (kyujitai)
    • Exception 1: words commonly spelled using kyujitai forms should be spelled as they commonly are. E.g. 烏龍茶 over 烏竜茶 (alternative form)
    • Exception 2: in 剥-剝, 頬-頰, 填-塡, the extended shinjitai forms shall be preferred in Wiktionary. However, they should be listed as extended shinjitai - publishing standard glyph pairs. (The reason is though the traditional forms are standard, the simplified forms are overwhelmingly preferred in digital media.)
  • Off-table simplification pairs that follow the commonly understood simplification rules (especially those in Joyo Kanji Table), whether presented as 印刷標準字体-簡易慣用字体 pairs in the Hyogai Kanji Table or not, shall be treated as extended shinjitai - publishing standard glyph pairs rather than shinjitai-kyujitai pairs. The ones with higher levels in JIS encoding (e.g. level 1/第1水準 is higher than level 3/第3水準) shall be treated as the preferred form in Wiktionary. E.g. 繋 - 繫 (publishing standard glyph); 躯体 - 軀体 (publishing standard glyph); 濾過 - 沪過 (extended shinjitai). (This is because some "official standard" character forms have low priority or are not supported in mainstream Japanese IME.)
  • Kanji pairs that follow the commonly understood simplification rules, whether in Joyo Kanji Table, Hyogai Kanji Table, or mainstream dictionaries, should be treated as simplification pairs. E.g. 税 (shinjitai) - 稅 (kyujitai) although kyujitai not presented in Joyo Kanji Table; 讃 (shinjitai) - 讚 (kyujitai) although kyujitai not presented in Hyogai Kanji Table. The selection of the preferred forms follows the criteria above.
  • No simplification artificially created using Ideographic Description Sequence (IDS) is allowed.

IMO, in this case, just left the simplified form blank and label this character as a nonstandard simplified form.--H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 02:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)