User talk:IMPNFHU

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

ਚਿੱਟਾ

Do you disagree with the etymology and other information shown at ਚਿੱਟਾ (ciṭṭā)? Kutchkutch (talk) 10:57, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes IMPNFHU (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not confirmed. and there's not enough evidence so we can't be 100% sure. IMPNFHU (talk) 17:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

If you want to add it then make sure you say that it's a theory and not 100% confirmed IMPNFHU (talk) 17:54, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Also the word "ਚਿਟਾ" is just a alternative form of "ਚਿੱਟਾ" IMPNFHU (talk) 18:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Greetings!

Hi! Hope you're well! I'm Taimoor. Thanks for the edits you've been making towards South Asian languages, recently! I was wondering are you a native Urdu speaker?

(P.s. when replying, you can ping me with {{ping|Taimoorahmed11}})
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 20:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

No, I'm not a native speaker IMPNFHU (talk) 09:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Warning

If you think a particular language should not be recognized as one by Wiktionary, bring it up in the Beer Parlour and initiate a discussion. Do not unilaterally remove well sourced and researched entries. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 05:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

If you continue to remove sourced content without engaging in a discussion, I will block you. This is your final warning. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 10:00, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Reverting and Removal of inc-opa

Hi, I hope you're well! I've noticed that you have been recently removing attested Old Punjabi Lemmas, which seems to be abnormal. Is there any reason for this?
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 16:23, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 what's the source that says old punjabi is an actual language and that these old punjabi words were actually used by people of punjab in their day to day life? IMPNFHU (talk) 10:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 it's not considered an actual language by punjabi university of patiala. IMPNFHU (talk) 11:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@IMPNFHU I'm not sure about the Punjabi University of Patiala, but linguists, such as Tej Bhatia and Christopher Shackles, usually differentiate between the earlier forms of Punjabi, namely Old Punjabi, and the modern spoken form. References are also normally provided with all Old Punjabi lemmas.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 02:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 These words are from sikh scriptures which are not written in punjabi and should not be used as source/reference for punjabi entries. IMPNFHU (talk) 19:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it's not just words from scriptures. I agree that sourcing lemmas entirely from the Holy Guru Granth Sahib may not be very wise but the idea of incorporating Old Punjabi lemmas was started by me, when I wanted to include مَسِیت (masīti), a word that has been referenced by Elena Bashir, ‎Thomas J. Conners in their research on Punjabi, Hindko and Saraiki. Additionally, we have sources of Old Punjabi poetry, which have been analysed and translated into Modern Punjabi, as well as lemmas referenced by other linguists.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 19:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 that's not a good reason to create a language. IMPNFHU (talk) 08:28, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The first discussion about Old Punjabi was at Talk:ਕਤੇਬ#Old Punjabi. At {{R:inc-opa:Glossary|v & viii}} it says:

Old Punjabi is defined as the hymns of Guru Nanak (1469-1539) contained in the Adi Granth, the Sikh scriptures compiled in the Gurmukhi script by the fifth Guru Arjan in 1604. It also includes all additional words found in the couplets by Guru Nanak's successor Angad, in those by the succeeding Gurus incorporated into some of Guru Nanak's longer hymns, and in the compositions attributed to Shaikh Farid.

The core of the Adi Granth consists of words from the two closely related languages of his time perhaps best described as Old Panjabi and Old Western Hindi (Khari Boli). Words from neighbouring contemporary languages also appear, one of the most important sources being Old Siraiki (Multani).

And at {{R:inc-opa:Glossary|277-278}} it says:

For seventeenth century Panjabi and Siraiki, the Adi Granth is effectively a unique source.

@Taimoorahmed11: Since {{R:inc-opa:Glossary}} has merged Old Punjabi with Old Saraiki as a single language, with some terms marked as Dakhaṇā (South-Western) style [based on Saraiki], could Old Punjabi be made the ancestor of Saraiki as well? Kutchkutch (talk) 01:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

re-pinging @Taimoorahmed11 in case the ping did not work the first time:

I sometimes recieve a notification for a message, but not the actual message. If I do not respond despite being online, please ping me again.

Kutchkutch (talk) 14:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Hi! Yeah I didn't even get pinged earlier. I'm not sure whether making Old Punjabi an ancestor of Saraiki is wise - from what I know, it's a pretty controversial issue, and I'm not a Saraiki speaker to even be able to give a solid opinion on this.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 20:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 there's no need for old punjabi. Punjabj words in ggs are same with minor spelling differences, you can add reference of the words mentioned in the punjabi entries with modern standard spelling. Punjabj is a very diverse language with lot of dialects and words have many different spelling and pronunciations.

You can add non standards, dialectal spellings in the "Alternative form" section, and please stop adding pointless old punjabi entries. I doubt most people who make edits on punjabi entries even know punjabi, they are just copy pasting information that they believe is right. IMPNFHU (talk) 01:48, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 as for saraiki, you shouldn't add to wiktionary as it's controversial language. But if you want add it, add it as descendant of punjabi because it's technically punjabi but in recent years because of political reasons there has been attempt to separate it from punjabi, similarly to hindi/urdu. IMPNFHU (talk) 02:17, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch stop with the old punjabi entries! It's not an actual language. You are dismissing an institute that regulates this language . IMPNFHU (talk) 23:26, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

śukkarvār

This term cannot be inherited. It is borrowed. If it were in Prakrit, it would be *sukkavāra. The analysis, śukkar + vār is a surface analysis, as I noted. Do YOU have some problem with me that you keep reverting my edits? —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 11:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

sukkavāra is used in east punjab IMPNFHU (talk) 11:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

It's dialectal IMPNFHU (talk) 11:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Some dialects are more sanskrit based and some prakrit IMPNFHU (talk) 11:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Not all punjabi languages replace "sh" with "s" and "v" with "b" IMPNFHU (talk) 11:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

the replacement of ś to s is not a mere variation. Ś is in borrowings, Sanskrit or Persian, and Ś in Sanskrit becomes s in Prakrit, and if the Punjabi term inherits from Prakrit, the ś isn't there. Another thing, if inherited the Punjabi term should have also lost the r, since in Prakrit, śukra > sukka. If sukkavāra is used, it is an inherited term, not just a variant. —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 11:59, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

sukkavāra is used in east punjabi so that means it is a inherited word IMPNFHU (talk) 12:04, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

A lot of people in east punjab doesn't pronounce "r" IMPNFHU (talk) 12:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

"Sh" is a native sound. It's not just used for loanwords. IMPNFHU (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Even Turner doesn't list this Punjabi term as inherited (see the entry). Punjabi's ancestor is one of the Prakrit lects, and if it has come from Sanskrit through inheritance, it is via Prakrit; and śukkarvār cannot be from Prakrit *sukkavāra, where did the r of śukkaRvār come from, ignoring ś? —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 12:16, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

"r" in śukkarvār comes from the same place that the "r" in puttar(son) comes from IMPNFHU (talk) 12:30, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Can you show any examples of words with ś which are inherited? —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 12:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)