Wiktionary:Tea room/2024/May

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← April 2024 · May 2024 · June 2024 → · (current)

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комунистички on Serbo-Croatian

Hello. I need a Serbo-Croatian meaning of "комунистички"! Frozen Bok (talk) 10:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

spaghetti

"Spaghetti" needs sense of "becoming nervous," very common in internet slang. Originally deriving from the infamous 4chan copypasta about a person buying Atelier Totori at GameStop, but becoming nervous and spaghetti falling out of their pockets. Perhaps also influenced by Eminem's "Lose Yourself" which has the line "mom's spaghetti." 73.151.120.25 20:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

• Can you give an example/examples of how this sense is used in a sentence? Mihia (talk) 19:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

  After researching a bit more it seems it is more localized to the online communities I personally frequent than I thought. Still exists, but perhaps not worthy of its own entry. 73.151.120.25 17:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

(Ukrainian) гольф

I have a question about the declension for the Ukrainian word гольф - golf (uncountable) or an item of clothing (countable).

The declension table and reference of R:uk:SUM-11 shown on the existing Ukrainian entry shows the genItive for golf (uncountable) as гольфа.

However, Kyiv Dictionary - R:uk:Kyiv shows the genitive for golf (uncountable) as гольфу, and the genitive singular for that item of clothing (knee sock and possibly also a type of upperwear) as гольфа. GT and Ukrainian wikipedia pages also seem to consistently use гольфу as the genitive for golf (uncountable), i.e. м'яч для гольфу, etc.

Any suggestions? Would it be safe to start changing the page and various links to follow the KyivDic declensions? Thanks. DaveyLiverpool (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@DaveyLiverpool: Hi. Your findings are correct. (genitive, not genetive)

@Voltaigne: Hi Are you able to split the term into senses, change the declension for one and add the reference? I will do it myself when I have time, if you don't get around. Quite busy now. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Voltaigne (talk) 08:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both, @Voltaigne and @Anatoli T.. I will sort out the main entry and links with the split senses today. I think I'll leave the clothing sense as "knee length sock" for now, and maybe somebody else will add any different meaning as appropriate. (And thanks for the genetive genitive correction - it's not the first time I've done that!) — This unsigned comment was added by DaveyLiverpool (talk • contribs).

I got there first but feel free to edit further if necessary. Voltaigne (talk) 09:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, @DaveyLiverpool, @Benwing2: Hi and thanks, all. I think it's fair to add both genitive form го́льфу (hólʹfu) and го́льфа (hólʹfa) for the sport sense, since this is what most other dictionaries say.

A quick quote (even if it may sound illiterate):

Він без го́льфа не мо́же ні дня, ні годи́ни.

Vin bez hólʹfa ne móže ni dnja, ni hodýny.

He cannot (go) a day or an hour without golf.

I changed the following way:

{{uk-noun|гольф<sg.genu:a.loci>|adj=го́льфовий}}

{{uk-ndecl|гольф<sg.genu:a.loci>}}

Pls add a note if "го́льфа" is considered proscribed. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

be on someone's ass

I don't remember how we lemmatize this kind of expression. Do we usually include the verb? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 Moved to on someone's ass. Ioaxxere (talk) 17:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

As Ioaxxere said in the edit summary, it depends on whether it can only be used with forms of be, or can also be used with other verbs. (This can apparently be used with other verbs.) BTW, you can also be up someone's ass in a similar sense: google books:"he's up my ass". - -sche (discuss) 20:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

crack up

• (idiomatic, intransitive, dated) To become insane; to suffer a mental breakdown.

Does anyone perceive this as "dated"? It does not seem at all dated to me here in the UK. Is it perhaps dated in the US? Or is it in fact that I am "dated" myself? Mihia (talk) 19:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems dated to me (US), though I am myself rather dated. DCDuring (talk) 01:27, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn’t seem dated to me, though I can’t speak for the US. As far as synonyms for madness are concerned, it does seem to me that doolally is a word that’s going out of fashion these days, though perhaps not enough to call it ‘dated’, and we already have a ‘dated’ tag for the longer form doolally tap. Overlordnat1 (talk) 07:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a fair bet, then, that "dated" was added by an AmE speaker, and I have changed it to read "dated in US".

While we are looking at regional variations in "crack up", I was also a bit puzzled that I have never heard of the sense "To crash an aircraft or automobile". I would expect to know that if it exists in BrE. I see that Collins lists it as "US", so I have added that label to our entry. Mihia (talk) 08:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Dutch gat

We have two entries for Dutch gat, both under the PoS Noun. The first has the basic meaning of “hole”, the second of “arsehole”. Is there a good reason to treat these as a pair of homonymous words, rather than one word with several senses? The second noun is assigned the gender “n or m”, but the entry on the Dutch Wiktionary gives only the neuter gender, irrespective of sense.  --Lambiam 21:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

However, Dutch Wiktionary does provide a reason, which is also that given by the WNT. Namely that plural and diminutive for "arsehole" are gatten, gatje, rather than gaten, gaatje. We should ping @Mnemosientje, @Lingo Bingo Dingo (who else?) and ask them how absolute this distinction is. I've definitely heard "gatje" in the relevant sense. 82.82.152.162 22:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

So then we have this plural and diminutive wrong.  --Lambiam 07:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I would personally lengthen the vowel for the plural and diminutive in each sense, but those forms are not very common. I doubt that the WNT's note would be nonsensical, however, so I see no problem with maintaining the split POS headers. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. That's exactly what I suspected: there's no 100% split. So I suppose we should have noun 1 (hole) with long-vowel forms and noun 2 (arsehole) with both forms. I'll edit accordingly. 82.82.152.162 22:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

reasonable time

Does having a Wikipedia legal article save this from being SoP? What else could it mean? Equinox ◑ 22:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Equinox: It might interest you that there is a translingual concept behind it that must be denoted by something. I can link it as a translation of unverzüglich, defined in § 121 of the German Civil Code and pervasive in our whole legal system, without needing further explanation at the foreign language entry. We can conclude that it is not anyhow simply a reasonable time but a time normatively required or deduced from the laws applicable to the case according to legal interpretation, hence passes WT:FRIED. Fay Freak (talk) 22:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Any MWE's use in a given context is determined by any special meaning of the components terms in that context. In the case of a legal context, a judge or similar gets to play w:Humpty Dumpty, at least within the courtroom, providing any special meaning required (in the judge's opinion) in the context. I don't know what discretion a judge has with respect to time, but reasonable would seem to provide plenty of room for judicial discretion. DCDuring (talk) 01:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I think this is SoP. At least at English common law it just means a period of time which is reasonable in the circumstances. — Sgconlaw (talk) 05:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Readers might benefit from a general (law) gloss at the adjective entry reasonable, by which we would also (albeit redundantly) shed light on the set term reasonable person, for instance. I would not have created negligence per se if I had formed the law definition of per se before. But then again Equinox complains if we pompously define terms by a generally applicable abstraction, and it does not abscond the consideration that the long entries are useful when searched or linked for explanation and hardly harmful. If we don’t agree in dogmatic constructions then we can agree on proliferation risks, practical use and SEO. Fay Freak (talk) 11:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I don't think a "legal" sense is warranted here. It simply means "a time that is reasonable", which is entirely SoP. It's not a term of art that has some special meaning which one cannot discern from the words reasonable and time. — Sgconlaw (talk) 12:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: This is because you put your reasoning into it a lot. It is non-obvious that it means “as soon as circumstances permit”, or “convenient” by a fair balance; I might have thought it rather means a “non-insufferable time”; as a foreigner, I would not have expected it to correspond, in corpora, to unverzüglich. It is one thing whether one can discern the meaning from the parts, another whether it is more effective to have an entry in spite of your ability, for clarification, that’s where my consideration of proliferation risks of further sum-of-parts entries, that should be greater than the clarification usefulness of the entry in order to delete it, comes in: I voted to keep Talk:antique shop by the same. Fay Freak (talk) 13:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@DCDuring: You don’t disagree, you are right and I see it the same way, it is exactly what happens, though I don’t know whether and how you make the conclusion of the term not passing WT:FRIED, withsaying mine. Fay Freak (talk) 11:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Clearly, unverzüglich = un- + Verzug +‎ -lich, that is, “without delay”. The legal uses mentioned on Wikipedia in Reasonable time allow for some delay (but not a delay by an unreasonably long time). BTW, verzüglich is listed in the Deutsches Wörterbuch by the Grimm brothers, who write it appears to have fallen into disuse after the 17th century.^[1]  --Lambiam 08:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but what constitutes a delay is decided, and provided, by weighing the conflicting values and interests, by the token of applicable legislation that has already outlined some thoughts in general. The Civil Code technicalized terms that had been mere everyday terms before; and the Anglo-Saxon jurists achieved the same result in their fashion. Fay Freak (talk) 11:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

proper adjective

Our def says "an adjective derived from a proper noun, such as British derived from Britain". But derived how? Not all adjectives derived from proper nouns are proper adjectives: there are many types of derivation. Meanwhile the Wikipedia article suggests it's just any adjective with a capital letter (more or less). Equinox ◑ 22:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• It probably should at least say "derived from a proper noun and retaining its capitalisation". On the other side of the coin, what kinds of capitalised adjectives would not, in some way, derive from proper nouns? The potential exceptions in the Wikipedia article, that I can see, are "For example, in Canadian government documents, Native and Aboriginal are capitalized", but who's to say that they do not, or would not, capitalise "Native" and "Aborigine" as nouns too? Also, there could be an overlap with the fusty practice of Capitalising Words that are thought to be Important. Mihia (talk) 00:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think that Native and Aboriginal are intended to be proper nouns in Canadian public discourse so that they can serve as convenient hypernyms for the various native and aboriginal peoples of Canada, having meaning distinct from the meanings of the adjective. BTW, I would expect that there is virtually no truly adjectival use of such words, but rather attributive use of the proper noun. Comparative, superlative, and gradable use seems to me to risk being felt as insulting or demeaning. But perhaps there really is predicate use. DCDuring (talk) 01:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I was imagining such uses as "Native languages" or "Aboriginal culture". Personally I would naturally read these as adjectival, even if the words are also used capitalised as nouns. Actually, I thought that "Aboriginal/aboriginal" as a noun was an error, even almost offensively so. Our article Aboriginal, says, of the noun, "was for a time considered incorrect", implying no longer so, whereas Collins dictionary says "could cause offence" and AH says "Often Offensive". I think we should probably add a caution to our entry. Mihia (talk) 08:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think such terms do not commonly, unambiguously meet any of the tests for adjectivity, though usage as predicate looks like the best possibility and there is a clear pattern of exceptional usage that applies to almost any proper noun. Examples that do are terms like American, Japanese, Swedish formed by adding an adjectival suffix to a proper noun. I believe we stipulated that all English proper nouns can be used in plural form (as well as singular). I don't recall whether we also stipulated that they can be used comparatively and gradably: "a very/more/typically New York style/manner/expression/dialect"). Why would we want to duplicate semantic content under an Adjective PoS for virtually every proper noun. We would probably have to do so also under an Adverb PoS for some proper nouns. Please don't PoS our users so many duplicative PoSes. DCDuring (talk) 15:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

except

Conjunction example:

• I never made fun of her except teasingly.

Anyone agree/disagree that this is a conjunction? The definitions distinguish conjunction "with the exception (that)" from preposition "with the exception of", yet "... with the exception that teasingly" makes no sense, while "... with the exception of teasingly" makes some sense. So, is "except" actually a preposition in that example? Any views? Mihia (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It occurred to me also to notice that we list "other than" only as a preposition, and, of course, "I never made fun of her other than teasingly" is fine ...

The object of a preposition in English grammar, traditionally at least, must be a noun (including a noun clause). And I would expect normal users who have had any English grammar would object to except being called a preposition.

I normally like to stick close to a surface analysis, but I would read the conjunction example as I never made fun of her except ((the times) when I made fun of her) teasingly. DCDuring (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I notice that we have excepting (and its opposite including) as a preposition too, so that would seem to be the best classification to me, or at least the most consistent. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 06:54, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Another fly in the ointment is that the other modern conjunction example, "You look a bit like my sister, except she has longer hair" can be seen as short for "You look a bit like my sister, except that she has longer hair", so does that mean that an implied that-clause, i.e. noun clause, is the object of "except", i.e. "except" is again a preposition?? I see that M-W give a conjunction example "was inaccessible except by boat", which is another awkward use with adverbial. Collins says that modern conjunction sense is "informal" for "except that", which I think basically I agree with. Mihia (talk) 08:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose another way to explain the "teasingly" sentence could be as theoretically meaning "I never made fun of her except I made fun of her teasingly", but this does require reversal of polarity in the "except clause", e.g. "you can travel any way except by bus" = "you can travel any way except you cannot travel by bus", and also for the verb-as-complement cases: "I did everything except steal" = "I did everything except I did not steal". Is this fair, I wonder? Mihia (talk) 20:44, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm coming around toward the conjunction PoS. There seem to be some uses that are informal but others seem broadly acceptable. The evolution seems to be from preposition ("except that [content clause]") to conjunction ("except [elision of content clause]"). A gloss of "other than" covers many cases (non-clause phrases?), but "but" seems best for others (full clauses). I haven't tested this out against enough collocations to be confident. DCDuring (talk) 15:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel confident enough to change the PoS anyway, so I think I'll leave that aspect as it is for now, but what annoys me is that the definitions look the wrong way round in terms of substitutability, as I mentioned at the top. Presently we have prep. "with the exception of; but" and conj. "With the exception (that)". Unfortunately it is the preposition definition that substitutes into the problematic supposed conjunction cases: "except teasingly" = "with the exception of teasingly" (just about), while "with the exception that teasingly" makes no sense at all, and "I did everything except steal" = "I did everything but steal", while, again, "I did everything with the exception that steal" makes zero sense. I wish there was some way to avoid this. If we were sure, we could explicitly mention the omitted full clauses, but again I do not feel totally confident that e.g. "I did everything except steal" really is a shortening of "I did everything except (that) I did not steal". Mihia (talk) 09:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

In any case, even the "obvious" prepositional example, "There was nothing in the cupboard except a tin of beans", can be given the same treatment: "There was nothing in the cupboard except there was a tin of beans". Mihia (talk) 17:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I sometimes bolster my confidence about this kind of thing by consulting CGEL (2002). I haven't read what they say about except and about shortening. I'll see what I can find. DCDuring (talk) 19:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

From CGEL (2002) pp. 641-2:

Matrix-licensed complements

Some prepositions appear with a wide range of complements that are licensed not by the preposition itself but by an element in the matrix clause to which the PP in question bears a modifier relation. One clear case of a preposition of this kind is except, as illustrated in the following examples:

[There follow 12 examples: NP, "bare role NP", PP, AdjP, AdvP, bare infinitival, to-infinitival, gerund-participle, declarative content clause, closed interrogative, open interrogative, subjunctive clause]

What this indicates is not that except licenses complements of all the different phrasal categories in the grammar, but rather that it takes as its complement something licensed by features of the clause containing it. That is, the internal syntax of a PP with a head like except is, unusually, not independent of the syntax of the matrix clause in which it appears […] .

The authors go on to identify excepting. excluding, save, and including as similar in this regard.

Elsewhere they say that they don't believe that the different complements do not warrant different PoSes. They seem to prefer 'preposition' as PoS. DCDuring (talk) 20:21, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

You wrote "Elsewhere they say that they don't believe that the different complements do not warrant different PoSes", but, I wonder, should the words "do not" be deleted? Mihia (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This makes me wonder whether we should have a non-gloss definition with usable idiomatic glosses as subsenses, with usage examples for each type of complement, for the benefit of learners and translators. DCDuring (talk) 20:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Unless anyone can come up with preposition definitions that substitute only into preposition examples, and conjunction definitions that substitute only into conjunction examples, I agree about the non-gloss def if separate PoS sections remain. But, in fact, can we put all types of complement under one heading, "Preposition and Conjunction", and add a usage note saying that these are difficult to systematically distinguish for all complement types? (I see that @-sche also suggests the possibility of combining them, below.) Or, if for reasons we can't have "Preposition and Conjunction" as a heading, maybe put everything under Preposition, with a note citing your source? Mihia (talk) 17:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding what you call the "polarity", I think that is explained by introduction of never:

1. "you can travel any way except by bus" = "you can travel any way except you cannot travel by bus"
2. "you cannot travel any way except by bus" = "you cannot travel any way except you can travel by bus"
3. "I did everything except steal" = "I did everything except I did not steal"
4. "I did nothing except steal" = "I did nothing except I did steal"
5. * "I made fun of her except teasingly." = "I made fun of her except I did not make fun of her teasingly"
6. "I never made fun of her except teasingly." = "I never made fun of her except I made fun of her teasingly"

1, 2, 3 and 6 seem fine; 4 sounds slightly clunky to me, and to me 5 doesn't work in this pattern (it would actually mean "I made fun of her, but I did it teasingly").

—DIV (1.129.111.153 12:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC))

I'll try to look through grammar works myself soon and see if I can find anything useful. Many other dictionaries do seem to have both above-mentioned parts of speech for this, but there does not appear to be much semantic difference, so the difference must be grammatical. Also, some of the dictionaries do something interesting, which is mention both parts of speech in one 'header' and then put all the definitions under that one lumpenheader, leaving it to the reader to decide which part of speech they think a given usage is. Whatever we do (whether we keep both above-named POS sections or consolidate to one POS section) we could have a usage note explaining the situation: A, B, and C reference works consider the word to have parts of speech X and Y, while D, E, and F reference works consider it to only be part of speech X.
If there is an issue with the substitutability of the definitions, I suspect we can fix that, regardless of any POS changes... - -sche (discuss) 21:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I've put some possible usage examples at Talk:except. I don't know whether there are glosses other than the synonyms but, save, excepting (which seem to take just about the same range of complements). It looks like any complement type (clause, phrase; PoS) a verb could take can follow except when it follows that verb. DCDuring (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Hans F. Nielsen and Erik W. Hansen's 2007 Irregularities in Modern English, page 283 on, discusses the history: "Except that (or except): as a conjunction it is a late formation (sixteenth century); the form's prepositional function is earlier (OED). They argue except was originally a preposition, it was used in clauses such as except that that... where for a variety of reasons the structure came to be simplified to except that, and there was a "reinterpretation of the functional status of the now dangling preposition, in our case except, as a conjunction. […] the original preposition, except, is lexicalized/generalized as a conjunction (cognitive economy!). Michael Skiba's 2021 Participial Prepositions and Conjunctions in the History of English, page 71, also says preposition except is older than conjunction except; "A special item is except as a preposition with a prepositional phrase as a complement (e.g. "except in the time of his sickness"; CEOFFIC2) […] This syntactically rather complex construction is attested last of all functions of except." (They imply date of attestation may be an artefact, however, in that they note that some verbs' participles are attested as prepositions earlier than as participles.)

Both parts of speech seem to be widely regarded as existing now. We'll probably have to take some care to make sure we're assigning the usexes to the right POS, but the same is true of many words (save and but also come to mind). I would not be inclined to have a combo header; it feels like a copout compared to having and trying to explain the difference between the two parts of speech. (It also seems like a pandora's box; are e.g. aliquot and woman to have "Noun and adjective" headers next?).

(Other reference works I came across and will mention: the 2008 Random House Webster's Grammar, Usage, and Punctuation, page 187, "Except is usually a preposition or a conjunction"; the 2010 AMA Handbook of Business Writing, "Except is a preposition or conjunction that means not including.".)

Also of note: Thomas Elliott Berry's prescriptive The Most Common Mistakes in English Usage (1961, reprinted 2017): "'except' is generally either a preposition or a verb. It is never a conjunction. Wrong: He will not do the work except I give the order. (Wrong because “except” is being used as a conjunction." In the process of making its argument that except should not, prescriptively, be a conjunction, it gives a type of sentence (which it's easy to find more of) where it says it is, descriptively [or so he says], a conjunction!

- -sche (discuss) 03:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

"He will not do the work except I give the order" presumably is the archaic sense "unless". On the face of it, this seems the clearest case of conjunction. One issue I have with modern "except" being a conjunction, even with a clause, is the fact that "that" can be inserted. E.g. "You look a bit like my sister, except (that) she has longer hair." If "except" alone is a "pure" conjunction, why would this be? For example, "unless" is normally a conjunction, let's hope, and we say "I'll go unless it rains", never "I'll go unless that it rains", at least not in modern English. It would appear, therefore, that "except that" is the "true" conjunction, and that "except" is just a shortened form. By that token, our main conjunction entry should be "except that", and our entry at "except" should point to that for these cases. As you say "We'll probably have to take some care to make sure we're assigning the usexes to the right POS", well, yes, but therein lies the rub ... or do I mean nub. If the clause complement cases were hived off to "except that", or "except-as-short-for-except-that", could we list all other complement types under preposition? Mihia (talk) 15:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

An analysis as a preposition can handle complements that are NPs, that- and wh-clauses, and possibly some other types of clauses. A subordinating conjunction PoS can only handle. A coordinating conjunction analysis can handle any PoS but only if it is the same PoS as the coordinate. I don't see how these analyses handle AdvPs, AdjPs, and PPs. The CGEL analysis says that the complement in most (all?) cases is licensed by the clause (usually specifically the verb thereof) in which it occurs. The CGEL analysis is more general, but doesn't satisfy our need for a PoS header. I suppose what we need to do is have our usual PoSes covering the cases that they can and add a usage note, with usage examples, as if the AdvP, AdjP, and PP cases were exceptions. DCDuring (talk) 00:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

It did occur to me that something like "I always beat him, and easily" is just about possible, i.e. conjunction joining disparate elements à la "I never made fun of her except teasingly" -- at least, what could we call "and" there other than conjunction? Again, one could posit "I always beat him, and easily" = "I always beat him, and I beat him easily", but again it is not totally obvious to me that "I always beat him, and easily" is allowed only as a shortening of the longer version. Also "He gave it to me although grudgingly", etc. So, OK, having gone all round the houses and back again, let's make/leave all the non-NP complement cases as conjunction. I think I definitely will make the definitions non-gloss, though, for the reasons I mentioned earlier (defs for one PoS substitute into examples for the other). By the way, I wonder whether you might be able to look at my question a little earlier in the thread as to whether the words "do not" should be deleted from what you wrote? Mihia (talk) 20:46, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

transparence

Does anyone else think that transparence should be marked as an alternate form/spelling of transparency? Here is the Ngram, if you need to see it: [2] Multiple Mooses (talk) 08:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

My instinct would be to make it a {{synonym of}} (rather than alternative form of) since -ence vs -ency seems like a separate word. (Compare dependence, dependency.) - -sche (discuss) 09:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @-sche. It's not pronounced in a similar way to transparency. — Sgconlaw (talk) 12:54, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

May be worth mentioning also that "transparence" is a much less common word. Mihia (talk) 18:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd prefer {{synonym of}}, too. DCDuring (talk) 16:29, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

This type of alteration is extremely common. Examples for just the first three letters of the alphabet:

• abhorrence – abhorrency
• abstinence – abstinency
• acquiescence – acquiescency
• adherence – adherency
• adolescence – adolescency
• advertence – advertency
• antecedence – antecedency
• ascendence – ascendency
• belligerence – belligerency
• cadence – cadency
• coexistence – coexistency
• cogence – cogency
• coherence – coherency
• competence – competency
• complacence – complacency
• concurrence – concurrency
• congruence – congruency
• consistence – consistency
• continence – continency
• contingence – contingency
• convenience – conveniency
• convergence – convergency
• corpulence – corpulency
• correspondence – correspondency

In almost all cases the two forms are synonyms or have overlapping senses. The simplest approach is listing them in a section Related terms.  --Lambiam 21:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

They’re certainly not just alternative spellings, given the differences in pronunciation. I’d mark them as altforms when their meanings are the same and related terms when they are different. Nicodene (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

• It would be interesting to see how consistently we deploy {{altform}} in line with our Appendix:Glossary definition: "A word etymologically related but varying slightly from another, such as variant spelling (e.g., sulfur/sulphur) or variant morphology (e.g., tenosynovial/tendosynovial).". It is not self-evident what range of allowable variation is covered by variant. In any event, {{altform}} should apply only at the level of definition, so semantic divergence should be shown in our entries, if we can muster evidence, preferably citations, but lemmings too. DCDuring (talk) 16:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  The various cases are: 1., straight definition (usually a single-word gloss, ie, synonym)), 2., {{syn of}}, 3., {{altform}}, 4., {{altspell}}, and, I suspect, template-free versions of the latter 3. DCDuring (talk) 17:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

play out

Somehow I have looked at this word for so long now that I can't see the wood for the trees. A few Google hits exist for "play out the rope", "play out the cord", "play out the line" etc. Notwithstanding that "play" has senses connected to manipulating something in a certain direction (e.g. "play the hoses onto the fire"), are these "play out the rope/cord/line" always errors for "pay out"? Or is "play out" a valid expression in this sense? (Search results for "play out the string" are dominated by a set expression whose origins seem to be unrelated to what I am asking about.) Mihia (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't see these as errors, might be related to the 'slack' sense of "play" Justin the Just (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I do see omissions in the entry. Def. 4 would be a bit clearer is it were "to develop, to unfold". But just as defs. 2 and 3 emphasize the result/conclusion/completion of something (often an aspect introduced by the "particle" out) I wonder whether we need a variation of def. 4 like "conclude". There is a related usually intransitive sense of "exhaust". "The internet stock boom had played out within 5 years."

The 'play out the rope, hose etc.' sense makes sense as a literal base for the metaphorical "develop/unfold" definition, but I suspect that 'pay out the rope, hose, etc.' preceded 'play out', so perhaps for a time 'play out' was an error. But the "play the hoses/water on/over/onto" expression makes sense where "pay" would not and does not seem to occur. I don't think that play out the string is a distinct idiom, rather an expression using a metaphorical sense of string. DCDuring (talk) 21:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

AFAICT, "play out the string" derives from a different sense of "play", a sporting sense, so nothing to do with "playing out rope". Mihia (talk) 09:49, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I searched on "rope played out" in Google Books, and found 487 raw hits, 363 of them from the 21st century. Quite a few were in the context of mountain climbing, some of it quite technical, but mostly in stories. It doesn't seem to be that rare. By contrast, "rope paid out" gets 1,450 raw hits. Those tend to be older, with only 288 from the 21st century, and more about machinery. All of which sounds like there was a point at which younger people weren't being exposed as rigorously to the correct "pay out" form, so they just went with what they heard in other contexts that sort of sounded the same. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

That would include people like me growing up in the 1950s and '60s, for whom payed out seems wrong or, at least, archaic. DCDuring (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I have added a new entry for this sense. Mihia (talk) 09:49, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

demising

Not sure where to list this (it has elements of an RFM, RFV and TR discussion) : We have a sense at demising labelled "of a wall or partition". I can, in fact, only find that sense as part of the phrases demising wall and its synonym demising partition. Is it used with other phrases, or should the definition be moved (mutatis mutandis) to demising wall, with demising left with a pointer like {{only used in}} or ===See also===? - -sche (discuss) 19:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Chícharos in Spanish Cookery

It seems, that from at least a video by the YouTube channel Spain on a Fork, the term chícharo means "white bean" in European Spanish.

What does anyone here think?

Thanks for reading. -- Apisite (talk) 05:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the Spanish descendant of cicer, which was displaced by garbanzo. Judging by the DRAE entry, it can be applied to "el guisante, el garbanzo, la judía o la almorta." That's a pretty broad range of legumes, from peas, to garbanzo beans, to kidney beans or green beans, to grass peas or chickling vetches. White beans definitely fall within that range, so it's not surprising to see them referred to as chícharos. I'm not sure if it's a vague term that can refer to all of those things without being specific to any of them, in the same way that vegetable can refer to spinach or sweet corn or tomatoes or cucumbers, or if it's a term that means different specific things to different people (in the Americas, at least, it does seem to refer specifically to peas). Chuck Entz (talk) 07:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: So is it okay to add the following definition?

# (Spain) legume #: Synonym: legumbre

In any case, thanks. --Apisite (talk) 08:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of the images in a Google image search show peas (plain peas, snow peas, split peas). This recipe for potaje de chícharos informs us that in much of Andalusia the term refers to the alubia blanca, said to be a large white bean in the Wikipedia article Cocido montañés, but other sources suggest it is not particularly large. The same recipe distinguishes the Andalusian chícharos from chícharos canarios, said to be another legume (chickling vetch?), and chícharos cubanos, said to be peas. The Spanish Wikipedia lists eight species that may be referred to by this term. Apparently, the type or types covered vary from region to region.  --Lambiam 20:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

dyopoly

@This, that and the other: What does German have to do with it? It's simply a more faithful transcription of the Greek etymon δύο (dúo), whereby <υ> is rendered as <y>, by people who are aware that the prefix is actually Greek and not Latin (there is a rule in compounding that states you're not supposed to mix up roots of different origins). Compare Dyophysite. PUC – 10:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@PUC I have no memory of this, but on the basis that I also added the NNSE label, I suspect I noticed that a great majority of the uses were from authors with German names, who probably assumed the typical English word was dyopoly on the basis of their own Dyopol. However it seems that the usual German word for duopoly is Duopol, so perhaps I was wrong. Happy for a correction to be made if needed. (Although I think calling that principle a "rule" is overstating it just a little.) This, that and the other (talk) 12:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

You're right, "rule" is probably too strong, but you get my point: some people (and I would include myself in the lot...) frown upon mixing up Latin roots and Greek ones, so it makes sense that they would write dyo- rather than duo-. PUC – 17:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

shamone

Definition: "An onomatopoeia popularly heard in songs by Michael Jackson." But what does it mean? Many sources say it's a form of "come on": can we confirm this? Equinox ◑ 10:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

caviar to the general

@Ralph Corderoy posted a question on the talk page about what is meant by "general" in this phrase. I was surprised to discover that it goes back to Hamlet, and is generally interpreted as referring to the "general public", not the military rank. Does anyone feel inclined to upgrade the entry along those lines? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting; is this ellipse of "general public" used elsewhere than in this expression? PUC – 17:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

This?

So play the foolish throngs with one that swounds,

Come all to help him, and so stop the ayre

By which hee should reuiue: and euen so

The generall subiect to a wel-wisht King

Quit their owne part, and in obsequious fondnesse

Crowd to his presence, where their vn-taught loue

Must needs appear offence: how now faire Maid.

Shakespeare, Measure, for Measure, Act 2 Scene 4

I think that here “the generall” is a noun, modified by the adjectival phrase “subiect to a wel-wisht King”.  --Lambiam 19:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

χράω and Nicander

The usage notes at χράω § Etymology 1 state, “Only used by Homer Thucydides and Xenophon and Philo”, but there is an implied (unquoted) use in Nicander’s Theriaca. What gives?  --Lambiam 18:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

manticratic

My entry (which you can find archived here) was rightfully deleted for not fulfilling CFI - the word is attested in the English corpus solely in the "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" by T. E. Lawrence making it both a hapax legomenon and most likely a nonce. Should it be added to Appendix:English nonces? Possibly with {{no entry|en|{{in appendix|English nonces}}|because=unattested}} added? In detail, I refer to our discussion with SURJECTION on the topic.CaptainPermaban (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, per your commentray with -sche on this topic. CitationsFreak (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Old Norse fœða/fǿða "food"

Claimed to originate from Proto-Germanic *fōdô. But if so, where does the umlaut come from? Influence from *fōdīniz and/or the class 1 weak verb? Benwing2 (talk) 05:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Etymology has been updated. Please see Leasnam (talk) 15:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

What about *fōdô? The Low German is also umlauted. According to the OED food has no precise cognates, so no reconstructed term is justified, right? @Sokkjo —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Middle Low German has vode beside vö̂de, and there is the Middle High German vuote (“nourishment, food”). I've added it to the page. Leasnam (talk) 00:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

"SORRY" abbreviations

Moved from Wiktionary:Grease pit/2024/May

Hello, Can "sorry" word made into abbreviations of both phrases — "someone is really remembering you" and "showing our remorse restores you"? Yuliadhi (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Those are just cute backronym or folk etymology-style wordplays like how Eminem "stands for" Every Mom Is Nice Except Mine. But this doesn't really belong here at the Grease Pit, which is about technical issues. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

da

This entry, da, has many many entries, including a translingual "symbol" for 'deca-'. Then at the top right of the page is a funny box showing that the CJK compatibility Unicode stuff includes an encoding for the two letter combination "da", with unspecified meaning (at least in the Unicode PSEUDO-ENGLISH DESCRIPTION). "Compatibility" means that it is a bureaucratic entry to cover the existence of an entry in some national character encoding (probably Japanese), allowing a person doing CJK typesetting to include the combination "da" as pseudo-character, occupying the space of a single character box. I suggest that this is not meaningful information for readers of en:WIKT, so I would like to remove it, unless there is some fixed principle that absolutely anything in the Unicode standard must be included wherever it can. Imaginatorium (talk) 07:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Weetabix

As an adjective. I hesitate to add this as it might be too limited in usage, and also I'm not sure about TMs being used as adjectives. Are there any restrictions?. Usex:- "... many voters are looking for a 'Weetabix candidate' – reassuring and uncontroversial ..." See Grauniad today. Thanks. -- ALGRIF talk 09:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this a genericized trademark or are we just hosting a brand's name? Vininn126 (talk) 09:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest. Please address that comment to the Noun entry via rfd. If it is acceptable as a noun, only then can we move on to whether there is adjectival usage enough to warrant an expanded entry.-- There are many many examples of TM nouns. This is just one. -- ALGRIF talk 09:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

‘ (left single quotation mark) as a leading apostrophe

“BIRTHPLACE OF ROCK ‘N’ ROLL”: Ohio Historical Marker (The Ohio Bicentennial Commission, The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, The Ohio Historical Society); click for full image

“BIDEN / PRESIDENT ‘08”: Logo of Joe Biden 2008 presidential campaign

I have collected uses of ⟨‘⟩ (left single quotation mark) as a leading apostrophe at Citations:‘ and included images of two notable examples on the right side. In 2022, I requested verification of ⟨‛⟩ (single high-reversed-9 quotation mark) in this sense, which has since been removed. However, as I found uses of this character instead, I asked Sgconlaw about it at Talk:‘, who suggested that I discuss this further at the Tea room. Should it be added an alternative form (with the “proscribed” label) of ⟨’⟩ (right single quotation mark) (e.g., “‘n’” instead of “’n’”)? J3133 (talk) 17:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

For ease of reference, my comment during the discussion on the entry talk page was that if this is just an uncommon error for ’, then by analogy with our rule for uncommon spelling errors there shouldn't be a separate sense for it. — Sgconlaw (talk) 18:17, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Use of the left single quotation mark in this way is a common result of overzealous autocorrect functionality in word processors; it’s quite possible none of the examples we’ve found were intentionally written by humans at all (1960 quote excepted). Given that, IMO this probably falls under our policy on typos and (if so) should simply be excluded: ‘Typos are words whose spelling comes about by an accident of typing or type-setting, without the intention of the writer. Typos should not be included, not even if they are relatively frequent’ (emphasis added). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: I found an image on the site of body care brand ‘Jentl (from the 2 November 2022 quotation) that has the name handwritten with ⟨‘⟩. I have also added four more quotations, from the Lincoln Journal Star, The New York Times, The Spectator; and the cover art of the album The Great Rock ‘n’ Roll Swindle (1979), including the poster for the film of the same name (1980; see the Wikipedia articles for images), which use “‘n’”. J3133 (talk) 06:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

As a proper name, I don't see how "‘Jentl" attests any use as a punctuation mark at all. "The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle" example is more convincing, since "Rock 'n' Roll" is not just a proper name and you'd expect the typography on an album cover to be intentional; however, it appears to actually use the spelling "Rock ‛n’ Roll" not "Rock ‘n’ Roll".--Urszag (talk) 22:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Urszag: Thank you for informing me about the cover album spelling; I found it at gas, which I have fixed. I moved the quotation to Citations:‛ (single high-reversed-9 quotation mark), which as I mentioned is the one that had this sense and was removed after I requested verification. J3133 (talk) 02:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

There's no doubt that incorrect use of ‘ as an apostrophe (especially leading) is quite common. Per Vorziblix, Word used to auto-"correct" to this (maybe still does, I haven't used a recent version), which may have contributed to this punctuation anarchy. Very many English speakers have no idea how to use apostrophes anyway. I think it wouldn't hurt to include a note "Sometimes incorrectly used as an apostrophe", perhaps also with a mention of the auto-"correct" issue. I'm not myself a fan of the "proscribed" label. The readers who would benefit from learning that this use is incorrect most probably have the least idea of what "proscribed" means (yes, I know that you can click on it, but even so ...). Mihia (talk) 14:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I very much agree with Mihia.

The usage is common, and in modern typed material it is undoubtedly mostly due to autocorrection in applications such as Word (I confirm that it still does this, although it can be disabled or worked around) exacerbated by ignorance/indifference of this subtlety among the general public. (Besides that, in handwriting outside of school many people probably just use ambiguous marks like ' or ".)

I likewise am ambivalent about the "proscribed" label: my hunch is that it is too easily misapprehended by the average person as meaning prescribed! I wouldn't proscribe application of the "proscribed" label, but backing it up with a Usage Note would ultimately be more helpful.

—DIV (1.129.111.153 13:16, 14 May 2024 (UTC))

churtle

The definition says "to chirp", but none of the quotes in the entry are about chirping. A chirp is a short, sharp sound, but these refer to soft sequences of longer sounds...sort of. One describes the vocalizations of a particular bird species as "churtle-churtle-churtle-churtle or wurtilee-wurtilee-wurtilee", another compares chanting in a Turkish mosque to "doves churtling". Doves make a variety of sounds, depending on the species, but none of them would ever be described as "chirping". Then there's the one making a joke about a cat, which doesn't mean much of anything. I'm not rfving this, because this does seem to exist- but the definition and the quotes don't add up. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

And the quote about the cat is actually a noun POS. Leasnam (talk) 17:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Spanish "corresponder": a "false friend" of the English "to correspond"?

At corresponder#Usage notes, we read "[c]orresponder is a false friend, and does not mean 'to correspond via letters'". The phrase for that in Spanish is escribirse con." However, the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy suggests otherwise. Is this usage in fact so obscure, or at least so uncommon, that its characterization as a "false friend" is justified? Animadversor (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It is listed as a verbo pronominal, which we might include in the form se corresponder. A group would say of itself, nos correspondemos por e-mail.  --Lambiam 18:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

What language is Lipović?

I copied this from el:Lipović, but the fact that creating this categorises it into Category:Slovene terms spelled with Ć, suggesting that ć is a rare letter in Slovene, makes me think το Βικιλεξικό got the language wrong. My impression is that this surname is Serbo-Croatian, but I assumed the Greek Wiktionarians knew better. Can anyone who recognises this surname correct this entry, please? 0DF (talk) 21:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll defer to our Balkan editors if they can comment, but as best I can tell, it seems to be Serbo-Croatian (one bearer, Vladimir Lipović, is affiliated with a company in Šibenik, and the name looks to be formed using -ović), although names have a tendency to wander (e.g. Thériault making its way into English), and another bearer (Iva Lipović) seems to be affiliated with an institution in Trieste(?), so it's plausible there are also bearers in Italy and Slovenia these days. - -sche (discuss) 22:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@-sche: Thanks for the response. Yes, migration would plausibly explain why Lipović ended up on the Slovenian government's list of the country's surnames. Would we then call it a Slovene surname, though? I know it's difficult to tell when a surname gets borrowed into another language, but that seems like too low a bar to me. 0DF (talk) 23:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@-sche: Sabid Lipović was Premier in 1998–2000 (representing the Bosniak Party of Democratic Action) of the Una-Sana Canton of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Gyula Lóránt, né Lipovics, was a Hungarian footballer of Croatian descent. Given all this, I'm going to change the language to Serbo-Croatian. If anyone knows better, please correct me. 0DF (talk) 00:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@-sche: Done. 0DF (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

how are you? fine, thanks

It would be nice to have at least one reply to this question in the phrasebook, don't you think? Justin the Just (talk) 17:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

no-no boy

Can somebody check the meaning of no-no boy? It says:

During World War II, a Japanese man who agreed to renounce the Japanese emperor and to serve in the United States armed forces.

But when I read the linked two questions at w:Internment of Japanese Americans#Loyalty_questions_and_segregation, I came into a completely different conclusion: a Japanese man who did not agree to renounce the Japanese Emperor and did not agree to serve in the US armed forces. --91.150.26.100 15:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Fixed. My mistake. Equinox ◑ 15:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

only son

"A sole male child among multiple siblings." and "A son without siblings." Are these different senses, or just different ways that a person can be an only son, to handle by combining them onto one sense line? Likewise for only daughter. (We also had the same sense twice at only child, but I've gone ahead and cleaned that entry up.) - -sche (discuss) 17:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The first sense implies he may have sisters, but he has siblings, just the only male child. The second is the only child who happens to be male, no siblings. Vininn126 (talk) 17:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Right, but my question is: are those different senses? I don't think they are, because AFAICT you can't say "no, he's not their only son: he doesn't have any siblings" (using "only son" to mean "a sole male child among siblings"). Nor do I think you can say "he's not their only son: they also have a daughter" (using "only son" to mean "only child, who is male"). AFAICT, the meaning is "sole male child (who may or may not have siblings)", hence I think the senses should be merged, but I want to know if anyone has counterarguments. - -sche (discuss) 21:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say that "a son without siblings" is an incorrect inference in a world where speakers follow the Gricean rules. That is, if the speaker is speaking the truth and is being clear and brief, they can only mean "a sole male child among multiple siblings". If they meant "A son without siblings", they would say "Only child" (or possibly "only adult child"). It could be that the second definition would have been a more common inference when the King James Version of the Bible was written: "His only son", Jesus.

I think that combining the two may be a good way of showing that the expression is ambiguous. Perhaps a usage note could refer to the Gricean maxims or to their implications in this case. DCDuring (talk) 18:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

not me being unsure about the part of speech

I've added a popular informal usage of not, recently designated the "spotlight not". I placed it in the Adverb section but I'm not sure where it should go. What do you think? Einstein2 (talk) 22:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that's an interesting usage, but I'm not convinced it's adverbial. The best PoS fit seems to be conjunction to me at the moment, which is potentially problematic given that the current sense there only indicates examples where two clauses are joined.

I read the current example

[...] “Not y’all trying to get into it! [...]” [...]

as

[...] “Not inquisitiveness from all of you! [...]” [...]

or

[...] “Not an instance of you all being busybodies! [...]” [...].

To me this is akin to phrases like

"Oh no! Not another flop! How are we ever going to pay our many creditors?!"

"Damn! Not noodles again for dinner! That's every night this week!"

I presume that in those sentences not acting as a conjunction, in the same way as and in, "I'll have the soup and the lasagne, please. And just water to drink, thanks." I think this is handled a bit more clearly more explicitly & comprehensively at and#Conjunction.

There is another pattern referenced by Backinstadiums at Talk:not#[~_+_"a/one"_+_noun] — sorry, I don't know how to wiki-link that anchor — which is not clearly aligned with any of the existing senses in the entry, and perhaps likewise fits best as a conjunction.

—DIV (1.129.111.153 13:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC))

full gas and full noise

What is happening with the entry full gas? It is shown as a Swedish^(OK) noun^(?), but not as an English term at all, and specifically not as an adverb. That contrasts with full throttle, full bore and full tilt. Besides that, full noise doesn't have an entry, but has a similar meaning in English (search, say, for the phrase "going full noise"). —DIV (1.129.111.153 12:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC))