Talk:即

Alternate usage?

In a Chinese dictionary, this character appears to be used in a definition, in the sense of the command "See..." (i.e. if one refers to a definition for a particular term, such as "cocoa," and rather than defining the term, it says "See chocolate." Is this an additional use of this character? If so, it should be added to the entry. 24.93.170.200 01:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In literary Chinese, 即 is roughly a synonym for 就. -- A-cai 23:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure the sense I saw the character used is still reflected in the definitions given in this entry, as none of them seems to reflect exactly this sense/usage. 24.93.170.200 00:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, none of the definitions in the current entry seem to match. Are you familiar enough with the usage of 就 to understand my above explanation? For example, compare the following two sentences:

• literary Mandarin: 只需3日即可减肥 (you can lose weight in only 3 days)

• spoken Mandarin: 只需要3天就可以减肥 (you can lose weight in only 3 days).

If you have studied beginning Mandarin, you should recognize the pattern in the bottom sentence. The top sentence has the equivalent meaning, but in a more formal written style. -- A-cai 08:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

Perhaps add an etymology section. Jidanni (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jidanni: it would be much welcome if someone could add some good Sino-Tibetan comparanda. On the Sinitic side, the character composition is clearly related to 卿 (OC *kʰraŋ). 卿 (OC *kʰraŋ) = 鄉 (OC *qʰaŋ) = 饗 (OC *qʰaŋʔ) in early writing shows a feast well in process; the feasters are already seated at the banquet. 即 (OC *ʔsɯɡ) on the other hand shows a partially convened feast, with one side unoccupied, implying the sense "to come", etc., and "things about to happen". Compare: 既 (OC *kɯds), whose early script form was traditionally interpreted as the final stage of a feast: some has left their seats, while the seated figure turns their head, their mouth open, speaking to the departing ones. The head part of the ideogram for "figure with open mouth" is very similar to that in 疑 (OC *ŋɯ). --Frigoris (talk) 19:32, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Frigoris: Hmmm, I usually just concentrate on the sounds: https://www.jidanni.org/lang/chin_eng_coincidences.txt Jidanni (talk) 21:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jidanni: reconstructing phonetic origins would definitely require external comparison with sibling languages, which is very difficult. Especially for words like this, which probably underwent heavy and early "grammaticalization" or "functionalization", 虛化, in Chinese. The closest phono-semantic match I can find inside Chinese for the (probably original) verb sense is the noun 跡 (OC *ʔsleːɡ, “trace; tread”), possibly via passive derivation.

Some fairly early vocabulary using the character include 即宗 [in oracle-bone script, possibly "to go to/come to/preside at an ancestral rite"], 即立 [possibly same as 即位 (OC *ʔsɯɡ ɢʷrɯbs), "to come/go and occupy the (rightful) place" in many attestations], 即朕小學 [apparently "to go to my school"], 即次 and 即寺 [to send (something/someone) to, to present (something/someone) at (some specific places)], 即刑 [to be put to punishment; to be subjected to penalty], 即其服 [figuratively "to submit to their duties"]. Also the word has stubbornly maintained its equivalence with 就 (OC *zuɡs), "to be with/at/near/subjected to; to approach; to go near; to go into/onto; to occupy; to be identical with", in diverse contexts, all the way into modern dialects.

hope some of these may help you with your investigations. --Frigoris (talk) 14:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Also STEDT has *m-dz(y)u-k link, which they compare with 屬 (OC *tjoɡ, *djoɡ). It's not clear if the 即 (OC *ʔsɯɡ) ~ 就 (OC *zuɡs) complex is comparable with that. --Frigoris (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)