Talk:隔音符號

Pinyin form of letters of the Latin Alphabet

The pinyin version given on this page for the rule about 隔音符號 from the 1958 Scheme (section 5) has problems~~ see [1] --Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:38, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Use in minority languages

Mentioned in 少数民族语地名汉语拼音字母音译转写法 --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:17, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Misuse

@Justinrleung, Tooironic I added an example of a real misuse of 隔音符号 that I ran across in an English language work-- see what you think (not sure if this is a good idea- also, the word itself may be too obscure). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Potential Category

Incorrect usage example: E'gongji

Similar to Category:English terms spelled with Ü which I can use to look at the use of the umlaut in English terms derived from Hanyu Pinyin from a bird's eye view, Category:English terms by their individual characters might be made to include a new category or subcategory such as 'Category:English terms spelled with a syllable-dividing mark' which would include entries such as: Bo'ai, Bo'ao, Chang'an, Da'an, Daxing'anling, E'zhou (misuse), Fu'an, Gong'an, Guang'an, Ha'erbin, Hai'an, He'nan (misuse), Hong'an, Huai'an, Hu'nan (misuse), Jian'an, Jiang'an, Jian'ou, Ji'nan (misuse), Jin'an, Jing'an, Liu'an, Long'an, Lu'an, Nan'an, Nan'ao, Pu'er, Qiqiha'er, Sijian'gou (misuse), Su'ao, Tai'an, Tai'erzhuang, Tian'anmen, Xi'an, Xiang'an, Xin'an, Xiong'an, Xuan'en, Ya'an, Yan'an, Yong'an, Yu'an, Yuan'an, and Zhen'an (44 total). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC) MODIFIED

I want to create and explore (as 'pure science') a running, working monitoring list/map of Wiktionary entries or possible entries with geyin fuhao (and their geyin fuhao-less forms), and whether there is any so-called "possible ambiguity" in how the word is to be split up into syllables. (From now on, the above listing is abandoned and future new geyin fuhao entries will be added here only.) This is an exploration of how these marks are used or thrown out of English language works, and the various trends involved and could help people who make the pages for the "incorrect" forms to find their way via "What links here".

MONITORING MAP

CATEGORY A: Has geyin fuhao and there is an ambiguity to be avoided (if we follow widespread practices instead of Hanyu Pinyin theory where lacking a geyin fuhao does indeed force the alternative interpretation):

1. Banqi'ao (Banqiao is Ban/qiao (misuse: Ban'qiao) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Ban/qi/ao, Ban/qia/o or Ban/qi/a/o),
2. Chang'an (Changan is Chan/gan (misuse: Chan'gan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Chang/an),
3. Daxing'anling (Daxinganling is Da/xin/gan/ling (misuse: Daxin'ganling) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Da/xing/an/ling),
4. Guang'an (Guangan is Guan/gan (misuse: Guan'gan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Guang/an; could also be either Gu/an/gan Gu'angan or Gu/ang/an Gu'ang'an, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
5. He'nan (misuse; Henan is He/nan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Hen/an Hen'an),
6. Hu'nan (misuse; Hunan is Hu/nan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Hun/an Hun'an),
7. Ji'an (Jian is Jian but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Ji/an),
8. Jian'an (Jianan is Jia/nan (misuse: Jia'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Jian/an; could also be either Ji/an/an Ji'an'an or Ji/a/nan Ji'anan, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
9. Jiang'an (Jiangan is Jian/gan (misuse: Jian'gan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Jiang/an; could also be either Ji/ang/an Ji'ang'an or Ji/an/gan Ji'angan, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
10. Jian'ou (Jianou is Jia/nou (misuse: Jia'nou) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Jian/ou; could also be Ji/an/ou Ji'an'ou, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
11. Ji'nan (misuse; Jinan is Ji/nan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Jin/an Jin'an),
12. Jin'an (Jinan is Ji/nan (misuse: Ji'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Jin/an),
13. Jing'an (Jingan is Jin/gan (misuse: Jin'gan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Jing/an),
14. Lu'an (Luan is Luan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Lu/an),
15. Nan'an (Nanan is Na/nan (misuse: Na'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Nan/an),
16. Nan'ao (Nanao is Na/nao (misuse: Na'nao) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Nan/ao; could also be either Nan/a/o Nan'a'o or Na/na/o Nana'o, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
17. Nan'gang (misuse; Nangang is Nan/gang but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Nang/ang Nang'ang),
18. Qin'an (Qinan is Qi/nan (misuse: Qi'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Qin/an),
19. Sijian'gou (misuse; Sijiangou is Si/jian/gou but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Si/jiang/ou Sijiang'ou; could also be either Si/ji/an/gou Siji'angou or Si/ji/ang/ou Siji'ang'ou, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
20. Wang'an (Wangan is Wan/gan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Wang/an),
21. Xi'an (Xian is Xian but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao (as we see in Ronald Reagan's autobio), could also be Xi/an),
22. Xian'an (Xianan is Xia/nan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Xian/an; could also be either Xi/an/an Xi'an'an or Xi/a/nan Xi'anan, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
23. Xiang'an (Xiangan is Xian/gan (misuse: Xian'gan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Xiang/an; could also be either Xi/ang/an Xi'ang'an or Xi/an/gan Xi'angan, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
24. Xin'an (Xinan is Xi/nan (misuse: Xi'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Xin/an),
25. Yan'an (Yanan is Ya/nan (misuse: Ya'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Yan/an),
26. Yu'an (Yuan is Yuan but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Yu/an),
27. Zhen'an (Zhenan is Zhe/nan (misuse: Zhe'nan) but due to widespread practice of omission of geyin fuhao, could also be Zhen/an),

CATEGORY B: Has geyin fuhao and there is no actual ambiguity to be avoided but some people will just skip using geyin fuhao because they believe the geyin fuhao rule is to use geyin fuhao only when there is ambiguity:

1. A'ertai (Aertai could only mean A/er/tai),
2. Banci'ao (Banciao could be either Ban/ci/ao or Ban/ci/a/o, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
3. Bei'an (Beian could only mean Bei/an),
4. Bo'ai (Boai could only mean Bo/ai),
5. Bo'ao (Boao could be either Bo/ao or Bo/a/o, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
6. Da'an (Daan could only mean Da/an),
7. Dong'an (Dongan could only mean Dong/an),
8. E'zhou (misuse; could only mean E/zhou Ezhou),
9. Fu'an (Fuan could only mean Fu/an),
10. Gong'an (Gongan could only mean Gong/an),
11. Ha'erbin (Haerbin could only mean Ha/er/bin),
12. Hai'an (Haian could only mean Hai/an),
13. Hong'an (Hongan could only mean Hong/an),
14. Huai'an (Huaian could be either Huai/an or Hu/ai/an, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
15. Lianyun'gang (misuse; could be either Li/an/yun/gang Li'anyungang or Lian/yun/gang Lianyungang, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
16. Liu'an (Liuan could only mean Liu/an),
17. Long'an (Longan could only mean Long/an),
18. Ma'anshan (Maanshan could only mean Ma/an/shan),
19. Pu'er/pu'er (Puer/puer could only mean Pu/er),
20. Qiqiha'er (Qiqihaer could only mean Qi/qi/ha/er),
21. Su'ao (Suao could be either Su/ao or Su/a/o, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
22. Tai'an (Taian could only mean Tai/an),
23. Tai'erzhuang (Taierzhuang could only mean Tai/er/zhuang) ---OR Tai/er/zhu/ang Tai'erzhu'ang
24. Tian'anmen (Tiananmen could could be either Tian/an/men, Ti/an/an/men Ti'an'anmen, or Ti/a/nan/men Ti'ananmen, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help in any case- "tia"/ㄊㄧㄚ (and hence Tia/nan/men) is not totally implausible as a Mandarin syllable- see diǎ),
25. Tianjia'an (Tianjiaan could be Tian/jia/an, Ti/an/jia/an Ti'anjia'an, Tian/ji/a/an Tianji'a'an, or Ti/an/ji/a/an Ti'anji'a'an, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help for any of these),
26. Xiao'erjing (Xiaoerjing could be either Xiao/er/jing, Xi/ao/er/jing, Xia/o/er/jing, or Xi/a/o/er/jing, but this geyin fuhao doesn't help either way),
27. Xiong'an (Xiongan could only mean Xiong/an),
28. Xuan'en (Xuanen could only mean Xuan/en),
29. Ya'an (Yaan could only mean Ya/an),
30. Yong'an (Yongan could only mean Yong/an),
31. Yuan'an (Yuanan could only mean Yuan/an),

One of my preliminary conclusions after reviewing this set of over forty instances of the use of geyin fuhao via Hanyu Pinyin into English is that it is really just not necessary at all for English to use the mark because there is, as yet, no documented situation where there will be a confusion between the English language names of two different places or other types of nouns on the basis of a missing geyin fuhao. The only two/three locations that could be confused because of a missing geyin fuhao that I know of are Jinan (Shandong) and Jin'an (Anhui & Shanghai)- how likely are people to confuse such distant places in any practical scenario? The best argument that geyin fuhao can differentiate words is something like Xinan/Xin'an; still a weak argument to me- I'll be looking for an actual situation in a book or publication where I can't tell whether a certain location is a Xinan location or a Xin'an location, but I haven't seen it yet. It's too much work for English speakers to put up with a rule no one knows for this extra apostrophe, get dangerous ideas about throwing apostrophes everywhere (He'nan, Hu'nan, Ji'nan), and then get almost no benefit beyond a potential pronunciation clue. If you were really in a pinch, English speakers could just use a hyphen anyway. Yeah, there's ambiguity about where to divide syllables (and then only half of the time), but it almost never helps English speakers differentiate between any two nouns, even at the expert level. No wonder Reuters articles from the 2020s about Boao, Daan (2018),Puer, Taian, Taierzhuang (The Atlantic), Tiananmen Square, Xian, Xiongan (2017), and Yanan don't use the geyin fuhao- it would just confuse people. Here's the question no one is asking: "B-b-but, what if they read your Reuters article, and someone confused a Ya/nan location with a Yan/an location?" lol. Be this as it may, the official or professional forms of these English language words are still usually the ones with the geyin fuhao, except maybe Tiananmen, Daan, and for Taiwan geography topics.
BUT- in the case of Xian/Xi'an and Luan/Lu'an, there are definitely words that the geyin fuhao distinguishes, like xian as county or Xian as a surname and Luan as a surname.
--Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2022 (UTC) (Modified)

Alternate Meaning? Or Error

[2] says that 隔音符號 means "syllable-dividing mark (·)" Note that Xiandai Hanyu Cidian [3] and Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian [4] do not mention (·), giving "(’)" and not giving any sense including (·). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:58, 6 July 2023 (UTC)