User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 27

新正如意

Would you mind adding a quote to the entry, so it becomes featurable? And what would be the most appropriate date for it? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 14:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo:  Done. I think the first day of Chinese New Year would be good for that, so for 2021, that'd be February 12. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:16, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, it has been set. I have used the pinyin romanisation by the way as it is the default, but perhaps using peng'im would make more sense? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Listing both pinyin and peng'im would be best. I've updated it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Fuzhou dialect checked coda

Hi, are there resources that distinguish -k and -h in characters with checked coda in the Fuzhou dialect? RcAlex36 (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I usually look to see if the word is in 閩英大辭典 and follow it. There might be other cues, but I'm not sure I understand them completely. You can also look WT:CDO for more help with BUC in general. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:21, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

教會

AFAIK, this term chiefly refers to a church as an organization, not a place of worship (as in a 教堂). However, I noticed the Cantonese example translates as "to go to church", and there are some similar expressions to be found on Google Books in (presumably) standard Chinese. What are your thoughts on this? Is it possible 教會 can be both an organization and a place of worship? I note the latter sense is not included in the guifan cidian: 基督教各派组织形式的统称。可指基督教各派的整个组织（如天主教会、东正教会、新教各教派教会）；也可单指某一个国家、地区或教堂的组织 or hanyu cidian: 天主教、東正教、新教等教派的信徒的組織. Perhaps this is similar to the situation with 公司 which technically is an organization but people often say they go to their 公司, in other words, their workplace, even if it is just a mobile phone accessories stand. ---> Tooironic (talk) 19:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: If you're being technical, yes, it usually refers to a body of Christians, but like the English word church, it could also sometimes refer to the place of worship. Some people proscribe this usage, but it's still common to hear 一座教會/一所教會 in Mandarin or 一間教會 in Cantonese, clearly using a classifier for buildings. I do think that it might be more common for Protestants to use 教會 for the building, though, and 教堂 often sounds Catholic (at least to me). I think we can probably split the two senses in the entry for 教會. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I think it's worth including this info, either as a usage note, or on different sense-lines. I defer to your judgement though. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:07, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I just saw this, I have a Mainland China friend though that calls going to her Evangelical church on Sunday as 去教会. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I have included the gloss "house of worship or religious organization" for now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 19:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

勇

When I looked up this word on wiktionary, I see that the first definition in the 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 is absent from the wiktionary page. While I don't mind adding the definition in myself, I am not sure how to do it. Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

In addition to the above, it appears the second sense of the word, which I would argue is related to the first, is also absent. The main idea of the word is in effect "sturdy", with the first sense of the word applied to a person, while the second applied to a product. It can very well be even applied to pets. Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:04, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Yup, added both senses. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 10:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

杯

I don't think it is only used as a classifier for ice-cream in Mandarin and, if so, needs to be added as a separate definition that only applies to Cantonese. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 07:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: It's ice cream in a cup, so it also works in Mandarin. google:"一杯冰淇淋" has plenty of hits. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Noted. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

甌

I want to add a definition for the Penang Hokkien uses. However, I don't know how to add the brackets that would add the words Penang Hokkien to the front of the definition. Could I get to know the code that displays that? — This unsigned comment was added by Fredrick Campbell (talk • contribs) at 07:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC).

@Fredrick Campbell: You can use {{lb|zh|Penang Hokkien}}. (BTW, you can always learn by mimicry. The labels are common enough that it should be easy to pick up.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks. I actually remembered seeing it somewhere, but just remembered it was in the page 桌頂. I would have referred to that page if you had not got back to me by now. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:13, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

毛鬼氅

This is a Hokkien lemma that is used in Penang. It refers to goosebumbs. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: If you're confident in it, you can try making an entry for it, but it doesn't seem to be attested anywhere (at least with a quick Google search). Are you sure about the character choice? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I selected the characters to fit the pronunciation. Should I use Pe̍h-ōe-jī to make the page instead? Selecting the tones is going to be problematic because I am uncertain if the phrase follows normal sandhi. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 11:09, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: What's the pronunciation? The first part seems like 魔鬼 to me, but I can't be sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Seems like a better guess than mine. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 04:47, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: But how is it pronounced? What's the last character? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Tai-lo: moo(tone 3/7) kui(1) tshang(3/7) using the tones with which they are pronounced. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

愛睏

I ran into a problem when attempting to add a translation for the definition given (sleepy). The result when I selected 'Preview translation' after was a statement saying, "ERROR:undefined" — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 11:15, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Where are you adding the translation? At the English entry sleepy? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:59, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yes. Like I said, it didn't work. — This unsigned comment was added by Fredrick Campbell (talk • contribs) at 02:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC).

@Fredrick Campbell: Worked perfectly fine for me. Can you tell me in detail what you tried to do? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:23, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:

• Add translation 愛睏: zh-mn
• Script code: Hant
• The above is from Fredrick Campbell (talk) 04:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: Ah, you need to use nan instead of zh-mn. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:Thanks. If I face further problems, I will ask for help. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

又一次

Hokkien: ko(1) tsi(1 to 3) tau(2) Alternative: ko(1) tsi(1 to 3) bai(2)

By the way, my language has some influence from the south. What I observe is that, every time I think there are two ways to say it, one is Penang Hokkien, the other is Malaccan Hokkien. I am assuming this is also the case but have yet to verify with my parents. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:45, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: That'd be 閣一斗 (koh chi̍t táu) and 閣一擺 (koh chi̍t pái). I would not make entries for these because these are SoP. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Noted with thanks — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:36, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Does 一斗 warrant a page of its own? Also, are you sure about the character for táu? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:42, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: No, 一 means one and 斗 means time - one time. And yes, I'm sure about 斗. See 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:56, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thank you. Time to add that definition for 斗. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Malaysia

I have not heard this word said too often, unfortunately, but last I remember, it was pronounced as though it was Malay, which is not unprecedented (science is typically pronounced as one syllable, like Malay "sains"). - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:32, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: There are a few issues. One is that if "sia" is one syllable, the /i/ should probably be a /j/. Second is that I'm iffy about the /s/ - I think people use /ʃ/ or /ʒ/ as well. (I've never really had a lot of actual interaction with Malaysians, but this is just my observation from some videos by Malaysians I've watched.) Third is that there might be variability in how people pronounce it based on various factors, such as which part of Malaysia they're from or the amount of English education they have. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:25, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Noted. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 06:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Teochew

@Justinrleung Hi! The current Teochew module we have, does that include the Shantou dialect? Can I enter words from a Shantou dialect source? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:07, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Yes, it's kind of loose right now, so most dialects of Teochew are allowed. That said, it's not necessarily going to give the right tone sandhi. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:08, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

% separator

I saw your edit here. Can you share your opinion at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2020/November#the_"%"_sign_for_Japanese_rubies? -- Huhu9001 (talk) 11:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Community needs to weigh in on edit war

@Geographyinitiative and @恨国党非蠢即坏 have been waging one of the silliest revert wars I've ever seen. I blocked them both from editing mainspace for a day so they could cool down and talk it out. There is claimed to be, however, an issue of policy regarding Chinese entries that could result in the edit war picking up again when the block expires. I don't feel comfortable mediating this and I've avoided taking sides because I don't feel like I should be setting standards for Chinese entries.

I would appreciate you and any other Chinese editors letting the parties know what the community thinks about all of this so it can be brought back to what's best for the dictionary. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The user has admitted through implication to the usefulness of using images (jpg, etc) on Wiktionary showing characters like the one the user added on this page (並) (which was as a replacement for the image that used to be there). I think several of the images could be improved in a similar fashion. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz, Justinrleung, 恨国党非蠢即坏 So do the images stay up or not? Do they need to be modified or something? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Is there a dispute resolution process on Wiktionary? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: The discussion is at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2020/November#image dispute of multiple Chinese entries. The dispute will be resolved with community consensus - we'll do what most editors have agreed to. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:11, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

出圈

Can you please check the non-Mandarin readings here when you get a chance? Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic:  Done — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

English in Hong Kong Cantonese

Isn't Hong Kong Cantonese primarily distinguished from Guangzhou Cantonese in that Guangzhou Cantonese is more "pure", while Hong Kong Cantonese frequently incorporates English words? The dog2 (talk) 00:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes, but that doesn't mean "straw" is that incorporated into Cantonese yet. Like if you're basing it on that video with 盧覓雪, she also said "pineapple" for pineapple. You'd need more evidence for words like this than just one video. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:19, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

About Hakka Online Source

@Justinrleung Hey! What do you think of this website, syndict.com for Hakka source? They seem to have sources for six Mainland China Hakka dialects. If you search words, they show the pronunciation for each dialect, including Meixian. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:16, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I’d only trust them for pronunciations of individual characters, I think. The vocabulary seems to be mostly unclear where they actually come from (kind of like Mogher). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:52, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: It's kind of cool that they also have a tutorial section on Hakka with dialogues and stuff. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:54, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Actually, it seems like they show whether the word is used for which dialect. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:55, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I don't know how reliable it is because it seems to rely on crowdsourcing, I think, just like Mogher. The tutorial is like a "General Hakka" mostly based on Huiyang, I think. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:49, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

合稱

Any idea how we are supposed to categorize 合稱 like 李杜, 郵電, 詞語, 動漫, 病蟲害, 干支, 三育, etc.? They're not really short forms, are they? ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:51, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I'm not entirely sure. Some of them are combinations of short forms of some sort, like 李杜 and 動漫, and some of them are probably blends, like 病蟲害. Most of these can probably be categorized under CAT:Chinese dvandva compounds. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:29, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I guess they could be considered dvandva compounds, but what if the term features more than two items, do they still count (like 三育, et al)? ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: 三育 is probably not a dvandva compound. I'm not sure what it should be called. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:49, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Glottal Stop in Taiwanese Hakka

Hey! So I was trying to make the entry for "tomato" in Taiwanese Hakka, and looking at the IPA, it has a glottal stop, and I noticed that the romanization systems we use can't transcribe the glottal stop, so I was wondering if you had an idea how to resolve that. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: It probably shouldn't have a glottal stop... Which source are you looking at, and what's the word you're trying to add? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: If you look at this link, https://www.hakka-language.ntpc.gov.tw/ezfiles/8/1008/attach/36/pta_1132_3953516_31774.pdf, the IPA for トマト on p. 65 has a glottal stop. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I wonder if that's carried over from the Hokkien transcription. This is really irregular and I don't know if we want to include it. The first syllable also has an irregular tone. It's probably better to get pronunciations from this. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:37, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Some help

In which section of the Community Wishlist Survey 2021 could I suggest the addition of Malaccan Hokkien for dialectical synonyms and pronunciation? - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: It's an internal issue, so it doesn't need to be suggested there. There aren't great resources on Malaccan Hokkien, though. Do you know speakers you can ask? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:31, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I know many relatives who speak the dialect. I am sure they would only be too happy to tell me more about the peculiarities of dialect. That said, they are not a stone's throw away from where I am. I will have to wait till the pandemic is over before the endeavor isn't a hassle unless I plan to do it all over the phone. Meanwhile, though, I could use my prior observation of its peculiarities (mn̂g for door, bǹg for rice). I will have to observe how the tones are pronounced, however, as I didn't think to take note of that on my last visit last year. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:21, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: I don't think we can do anything with pronunciation at the moment other than allowing it as a label, since we don't know what sounds are allowed in the dialect without a systematic study. There are several studies on its tones, but that's about it. Based on what I've observed, it seems like you aren't too familiar with POJ (like 飯 should be pn̄g, not bǹg). I think we can hold off on adding pronunciation for now. As for synonyms, we could add a dialect point to the modules, but if you can't currently ask your relatives, I don't think there'd be much use for now. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:37, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks. And yeah, I am not too familiar with POJ because I have been using Tai-lo for typing Hokkien. Any idea who could help to add the label for pronunciation and a dialect point to the modules? - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: POJ isn't that different from Tâi-lô. It would not be bǹg even in Tâi-lô. Anyhow, I could add them in if you're confident about adding content on it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: For now, it's kind of pointless as I can't verify anything. We could start in approximately a year or two. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I have my first edit for Malaccan Hokkien now. 杯 for cup. Tai-lo-pue1. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrlueng: My mom uses 太 sometimes when saying excessive. She is from Malacca. I have concern that her family's Hokkien has heavy Teochew influence and may differ from other speakers of the region.

錯 in Penang Hokkien

Although 毋著 is used to express it, Tâi-lô: tà / tā is also used. However, I can't find a candidate character for it and am not sure how to add it in to the dialectical synonyms. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:16, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: 賺／赚. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Thanks. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: By any chance, do you know its etymology? If the character is used for its sound, is that considered etymology?

@Fredrick Campbell: 《玉篇》：「𧸖，徒陷切，錯也，重賣也。」The word was also written as 賺. 宋徐鉉《稽神錄拾遺‧教坊樂人子》：「訝，賺矣！此辟穀藥也。」, in which 賺=貽誤. The senses "to make a profit" and "wrong" may not be etymologically related though. By the way, please remember to sign your comment. RcAlex36 (talk) 10:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: My apologies for forgetting to do so. From what you have given, can I definitively conclude that the character was used for the sound? - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: 汉语方言词汇 p. 516 notes the 本字 is 賺. It is unlikely that you can find attestations for this since Hokkien isn't usually written outside of Taiwan. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:04, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: If I find a written attestation for this, might it be possible to ascertain its etymology? - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 12:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: What do you mean? The character isn't the word; it's a way to write the word, and there's different ways to write this word which exists in costal Min. We write it as 賺 on Wiktionary, and there's a good justification for this. It appears to be the etymologically related to the word recorded in《玉篇》and attested in《稽神錄拾遺‧教坊樂人子》. That's why academic sources say the 本字 of this word that exists in costal Min is 賺. This word is also written with the character 誕 in some academic sources, but it does not appear to be derived from the word 誕 due to a mismatch between the tones. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:44, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Sorry about that. I may have conflated orthography and etymology. Many apologies for that. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 03:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)