Talk:圜

Definition

@KevinUp Can you show that where did you get the sense "celestial object"? Thanks. Dokurrat (talk) 11:30, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

According to 《教育部國語辭典》 (Moedict Taiwan) and 《通用规范汉字字典》 (北京商務印書館), the definition for 圜 under the pronunciation ㄩㄢˊ (yuán) is:

1. 天體 (celestial body)
2. 圓形 (circle)

Meanwhile, my copy of 《古代漢語常用字字典 （第五版）》 lists the following definition with relevant citations:

1. (huán) 圍繞 ~《列子·說符》
2. (yuán) 同圓， 圓形。 ~《墨子·經上》 （引） 天 ~《楚辭·屈原·天問》
3. (yuán) 牢獄 ~《周禮·秋官·司寇》
4. (yuán) 指錢幣 ~《漢書·食貨志下》

Based on the Chu Ci citation, there is a reference to 九重, which is supposedly the ninth and highest layer of heaven.

圜則九重，孰營度之？ [MSC, trad.]
圜则九重，孰营度之？ [MSC, simp.]

From: Verses of Chu, 《楚辭 (Chǔcí)·屈原·天問》

Yuán zé jiǔzhòng, shú yíng dù zhī? [Pinyin]

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

Last of all, the definition of 天體 is also given in 《說文解字·囗部》: 圜：天體也。 从囗瞏聲。

The definition on wiktionary is currently given as heaven or celestial body. Depending on context it can mean either one. Based on my understanding, people in ancient China once regarded heaven as being round. Thanks for looking after wiktionary and improving the veracity of its entries. — This unsigned comment was added by KevinUp (talk • contribs).

@KevinUp: One problem: This specific sense of 圜 is an ancient sense. Can you proof that "celestial body" sense of 天體／天体 (tiāntǐ) existed in pre-modern times? That's what I wanted to say. Dokurrat (talk) 09:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: Here's what I found on wikisource Chinese → 2,425 entries with the search term 天體 [1]. Here are some of the more prominent entries among them:

日月星辰以成天體，四成則太極之體，退藏於四者之間而不可見，所以日月星辰與天而五，除日月星辰則無天，四者有體所以成形。 [MSC, trad.]
日月星辰以成天体，四成则太极之体，退藏于四者之间而不可见，所以日月星辰与天而五，除日月星辰则无天，四者有体所以成形。 [MSC, simp.]

From: 南宋 (Nán Sòng) · 鮑雲龍 《天原發微·卷之九》

Rìyuèxīngchén yǐ chéng tiāntǐ, sìchéng zé tàijí zhī tǐ, tuìcáng yú sìzhě zhījiān ér bùkě jiàn, suǒyǐ rìyuèxīngchén yǔ tiān ér wǔ, chú rìyuèxīngchén zé wú tiān, sìzhě yǒu tǐ suǒyǐ chéngxíng. [Pinyin]

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

蔡季通嘗有言，論日月則在天裏，論天則在太虛空裏。若去太虛空裏觀，那天自是日月滾得不在舊時處了。又曰：天無體，只二十八宿便是天體。日月皆從角起，天亦從角。起日則一日運一周。 [MSC, trad.]
蔡季通尝有言，论日月则在天里，论天则在太虚空里。若去太虚空里观，那天自是日月滚得不在旧时处了。又曰：天无体，只二十八宿便是天体。日月皆从角起，天亦从角。起日则一日运一周。 [MSC, simp.]

From: 清 (qīng) · 陈梦雷 《欽定古今圖書集成·曆象彙編·乾象典·第五卷·【天地總部總論二 · 朱子全書 · 天度】》

Càijì tōng cháng yǒu yán, lùn rìyuè zé zài tiānlǐ, lùn tiān zé zài tàixūkōng lǐ. Ruò qù tàixūkōng lǐ guān, nà tiān zìshì rìyuè gǔn dé bùzài jiùshíchù le. Yòu yuē: tiān wú tǐ, zhǐ èrshíbāsù biànshì tiāntǐ. Rìyuè jiē cóng jiǎo qǐ, tiān yì cóng jiǎo. Qǐ rì zé yīrì yùn yīzhōu. [Pinyin]

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

Based on what I found, it seems that the traditional sense of 天體 may refer to the modern sense of universe. To accomodate the traditional sense of 天體 perhaps "celestial realm" is more appropriate here. KevinUp (talk) 10:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp: OK. Dokurrat (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp: Please look at the second citation you've found. It's quite unnatural that if 天無體 were to be translated into something like "Heaven has no realm". I think 天體 of this sense could be translated more literal, like "*the physical being of heaven" or "*the substance of heaven" "*the substantial presence of heaven". What's your idea? 10:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC) — This unsigned comment was added by Dokurrat (talk • contribs).

@Dokurrat: The citations given are just examples. Look over here [2] for more examples of the usage of 天體 in pre-modern China. It is hard to directly translate what 天體 actually means in ancient China. This debate is similar to that of Tian (天 (tiān)). Does the word 天 (tiān) refer to heaven, our physical sky, or a supreme being? The meaning itself seems lost in translation, which is why there are separate wikipedia entries for 天 (tiān). KevinUp (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I think that the definition of celestial realm fits well within the context of the Chu Ci citation, which gives mention to 九重 (jiǔchóng), the ninth and highest layer of heaven. KevinUp (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)